Thanks! - and a question...

Mike172

Thanks - I will post. Should I remove the part about charging?

ampersand

You may want to spell out that any letter posted with 1st class stamp is deemed delivered within 48hrs and your free CoP proof of this will be available to the independent appeals service, if necessary.
'This rebuttal has been sent by 1st-class post and is thereby deemed delivered within 48hrs. The RK retains official PO proof of posting.'

' neither consideration nor acceptance' - tweak needed.

point 2. l.4 -
Capital D for 'despite - new sentence.
I remind you of your duty to mitigate any loss = change from 'the'

Wherever 'contract' is wrongly alleged, please continue to accurately qualify it, as you mostly have done. 'contract', despite parentheses, is not strong enough. Don't let a single one slip through, in case it becomes magically redacted at some future point.
So, point 3, ll 6 and 8.
- this so-called 'contract', then 'then that same so-called 'contract' still ends.
The exception is point 2, l 4, where it is correctly used in its own right.

'but I realise that you may have incurred nominal costs' - I always want to add 'in concocting it' :-)
#
Why leave out the 'charging' bits? You and friend can follow through, if need be, with your own Personal Costs Notifications later. Is this what you meant Mike?

Mike172

Thanks - I ment, to put it bluntly, I cant be bothered to give myself any more hassle. As gertysingh put it "you did say you were going to charge them".

Not entirely sure what you mean when you say Wherever 'contract' is wrongly alleged, please continue to accurately qualify it, as you mostly have done. You say dont let a single one slip through. Is this 1st stage soft appeal not up to scratch?

Done some more reading and I will be posting 1st class without Proof of postage. Post 17 in this:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4969473

My revised letter:

Bloggs PPC
Anystreet
Anytown


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. 000

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on the following grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is an unrecoverable penalty and not commercially justified.
b). The signage is insufficient, the risk of a charge is not transparent and the wording is ambiguous.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your written 'notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012.
e). There was neither consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

The purpose of this communication is threefold:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn in the absence of evidence. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge if you cannot claim keeper liability. Please uphold this challenge or send a rejection letter, so I can escalate this appeal to the independent appeal service offered by your Trade Body.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date for researching the law, reading your notice and responding. Despite a lack of contract I calculate both my costs and yours to be under £15 at this early stage, therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of your duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my expenses.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged contract which was never properly offered or explained by you. The charge is not acknowledged, is not due and no 'service' from you was ever expressly requested by the driver or by me. Neither the driver nor myself gave 'prior express consent' or any consent at all for the alleged contract and it is not for me to reimburse you for foisting an unexpected and non-negotiated contract upon any driver of my vehicle. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - your IAS or POPLA, then the contract still ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies.

As well as not meeting the requirements of the POFA 2012, it is my view that you have breached the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Payments) Regs 2013. In replying, you will also be acknowledging receipt and understanding of points 2 and 3 above. This rebuttal has been sent by 1st-class post and is thereby deemed delivered within 48hrs. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.


Yours faithfully


Friends Name

ampersand

That's fine Mike, but:
' without Proof of postage.' contradicts your good closing sentence in rebuttal.
Do you mean 'with'? - don't worry, we all know how the mind starts going in circles with all of their racketeering gobbledygook.
#
I just meant for you to correctly describe 'contract' with suitable adjective at every juncture. So -
'3. Notice of cancellation of your alleged 'contract'
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered or explained by you. The charge is not acknowledged, is not due and no 'service' from you was ever expressly requested by the driver or by me. Neither the driver nor myself gave 'prior express consent' or any consent at all for the alleged contract and it is not for me to reimburse you for foisting an unexpected and non-negotiated document, purporting to be a contract, upon any driver of my vehicle. Any so-called 'contract' you produce is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - your IAS or POPLA, then that same so-called 'contract' still ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies.

Mike172

Thanks ampersand Ill use that in both of my stage 1 appeals.

Mike172

OK so sent this off today for both PCN's:

Thanks for the help so far everyone.

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. 000000

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on the following grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is an unrecoverable penalty and not commercially justified.
b). The signage is insufficient, the risk of a charge is not transparent and the wording is ambiguous.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your written 'notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012.
e). There was neither consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

The purpose of this communication is threefold:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn in the absence of evidence. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge if you cannot claim keeper liability. Please uphold this challenge or send a rejection letter, so I can escalate this appeal to the independent appeal service offered by your Trade Body.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date for researching the law, reading your notice and responding. Despite a lack of contract I calculate both my costs and yours to be under £15 at this early stage, therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of your duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my expenses.

3. Notice of cancellation of your alleged 'contract'
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered or explained by you. The charge is not acknowledged, is not due and no 'service' from you was ever expressly requested by the driver or by me. Neither the driver nor myself gave 'prior express consent' or any consent at all for the alleged contract and it is not for me to reimburse you for foisting an unexpected and non-negotiated document, purporting to be a contract, upon any driver of my vehicle. Any so-called 'contract' you produce is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - your IAS or POPLA, then that same so-called 'contract' still ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies.

As well as not meeting the requirements of the POFA 2012, it is my view that you have breached the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Payments) Regs 2013. In replying, you will also be acknowledging receipt and understanding of points 2 and 3 above. This rebuttal has been sent by 1st-class post and is thereby deemed delivered within 48hrs. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.


Yours faithfully


My actual name...

Mike172

Should I have included my Address in the letter? so they can respond or will they know it.

Coupon-mad

Yes you need a postal address - like any letter, top right.

Mike172

Maybe im being stupid.

I sent this appeal to 'UK-CPM, PO Box...' and not Appeals & Enquiries, PO Box'

Something Guys Dad wrote on another thread got me thinking when he said. Make sure you send it to the right address else they will pretend they havent seen it.

You think they have the decency to pass it to the relevant department?

Should I resend (probably do it via email this time) ?

Coupon-mad

Email if they accept email appeals, yes, I would not have wasted a stamp if email was an option anyway!