Need help designing cafe kitchen

phill99

EssentialParadox wrote: »

I don't think we can do the former but your suggestion to get to the rear area without going through the kitchen is valid. At the end of the day, it's quite a small cafe and I don't expect staff to be rushing around like in a restaurant setting. However if it turns out I'm wrong, I have a plan B… If we find staff regularly need access through the kitchen to the garage, we can simply add another door by the wall beside the washroom. That would allow staff to bypass the kitchen and be quite an easy fix too if we plan for it from the outset. Although I'm going to bring it up with our contractor—he might just suggest a door there anyway for health & safety.

Surely doing plan B from the start has got to be a better option as it will give you more wall space and hence worktop space / storage in the kitchen.

AbbieCadabra

some quick fire questions (sorry for any duplicates of things already asked) -
what are the business rates? presume you'll qualify for small business rate relief?
what will be the set up, Limited Co., partnership?
will you use an accountant? bookkeeper for day to day record keeping?
what about wages software, all needs to be reported under RTI to HMRC whenever you pay someone now.
employment contracts?
should be a while off but you'll need to know the basics for workplace pensions, you will have to operate a scheme at some point, our start date is about 18 months away.
how many covers needed per day, spend per person?
have you already guesstimated the footfall in the area, or as this will be specialised, you'll be targeting customers to draw them in?
phone line/broadband already in place? gas/elec tied in with rent or can you do your own deals?

EssentialParadox

phill99 wrote: »

Surely doing plan B from the start has got to be a better option as it will give you more wall space and hence worktop space / storage in the kitchen.

Good point! I sorta imagined access to the rear through the back of the kitchen for easy deliveries but perhaps it won't be needed. I'll give it some thought!

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

We can be a bit like that over here, but that's because we'd rather you went 'whoops, hadn't thought of that! better factor another few £k of expenditure in' now than have you come back in a few months time going '!!!!!!, hadn't realised we'd be liable for that, where do we find another few £k, the place is already running at a loss!'

Hehe yeah, I know what people are like around here That's exactly why I posted here actually... It's a great place to get honesty, and I think it's important to be open to criticism and hard truths if you want to be successful. So many people open businesses that baffle me and then unsurprisingly close a few months later.

In our case, we have put in the effort to work out a solid business plan first and we've met with a business advisor. It's my 3rd business so I'm already versed in the financial and legal side of things, and a friend with long-term experience managing a board game cafe is coming over from Canada to help us get it up and running. It is our first shop-front business though, so all the commercial property/cafe-specific advice is certainly appreciated.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I think a very valid point was made earlier about the nature of a games cafe: people will probably drink more than they eat. But I'd suggest that you need to be quite conservative in your estimates of how many drinks the average player will consume over the length of their visit: I don't know if you're aiming to attract children who'll need to have parents in tow (you might want to consider a lower age limit for children being left, btw!) but I always 'rationed' what I bought when I was out with my boys, because with four of you, it gets so expensive!

We're being incredibly conservative with our numbers. 30 customers per day to start, growing to 90 per day (on average, weekends will be higher) after the first 12 months. We've estimated to sell a sandwich to around 25% of customers, a hot/cold drink to 90%, alcohol to 10% (factoring in that some of that 10% is some customers buying multiple drinks), and then game sales (we'll retail games too!) is 5%.

I found it interesting what you said about parents with kids. That's something we're still investigating how best to approach that. We have a cover charge of £3.50, but that obviously gets pricy if you're a parent bringing in a few kids so what kind of deal could we offer that would make it more attractive to you? Perhaps a family cover charge? Or parents come in free with x number of kids? A cheaper, kid-specific cover? Meal deals? There's a few options but haven't yet decided what to go with.

AbbieCadabra wrote: »

some quick fire questions (sorry for any duplicates of things already asked) -
what are the business rates? presume you'll qualify for small business rate relief?
what will be the set up, Limited Co., partnership?
will you use an accountant? bookkeeper for day to day record keeping?
what about wages software, all needs to be reported under RTI to HMRC whenever you pay someone now.
employment contracts?
should be a while off but you'll need to know the basics for workplace pensions, you will have to operate a scheme at some point, our start date is about 18 months away.
how many covers needed per day, spend per person?
have you already guesstimated the footfall in the area, or as this will be specialised, you'll be targeting customers to draw them in?
phone line/broadband already in place? gas/elec tied in with rent or can you do your own deals?

- We should qualify for rate relief yeah. Aside from that the business rates are about £7k, so quite cheap!
- I covered the, erm, covers just above. :rotfl:
- It's a ltd company and we're planning to run it ourselves initially so any deeper employee stuff is not a concern just yet, but once we do look at hiring we're going to use a solicitor to help with the contracts and any pension material.
- Definitely going to use an accountant. Have always used one – my experience is they always save you more money than their fees.
- No current phone, broadband, gas, or electric. We've estimated the costs for these and they won't be too much.

Errata

I've never come across a board game cafe before, it's terra incognita to me -but..... What happens when bits of a game go missing? What happens if three different groups of customers all want the same board game? What happens if kids are shrieking with excitement and driving adult 'gamers' nuts? What happens when drinks get spilled on the games? What happens if a few 'well oiled' adults turn up to try out the novelty value of a board games cafe?

paddyrg

Game sales 5% sounds very high! No, really, think about it - that's a game *sold* for every 20 covers

Five families of 4 come in for a glass of juice. Or you're on a commuter path and sell a filter coffee to 2 people a morning and on their way home - one of them has to buy a game a week - that's what 5% looks like.

An alternative business model (just because one should explore alternatives, however insane, just in case there's a nugget of brilliance in there) could be that you charge a (say) £5/hr cover charge, then all drinks are free. £5/hr is probably what you'd get from a couple of cups of tea anyway. Maybe also offer takeaway at normal prices.

Or a 'coffee subscription' where for a fixed amount (maybe a fiver a week or maybe tenner a week and twenty a month, sliding scale of some sort, whatever the market will stand) you can have all the coffee you can drink between 7am and 10am, during the commuter rush. Not many !!!!!!!!!!s around at that time, so your trade will mostly be loyal commuters and if your subscription scheme also includes cake/sandwich incentives/discounts for lunch/spin the wheel every renewal day for a free pastry scheme you may get some good regular upsell. Best of all, it's regular guaranteed money, and you can predict your sales and know your cashflow is secure.

Savvy_Sue

EssentialParadox wrote: »

I found it interesting what you said about parents with kids. That's something we're still investigating how best to approach that. We have a cover charge of £3.50, but that obviously gets pricy if you're a parent bringing in a few kids so what kind of deal could we offer that would make it more attractive to you? Perhaps a family cover charge? Or parents come in free with x number of kids? A cheaper, kid-specific cover? Meal deals? There's a few options but haven't yet decided what to go with.

Hmmm. Can't remember when I last went anywhere with a minimum cover charge. Would probably tend to avoid them with younger children, because you might want to share a meal.

TBH, I'd probably avoid one now, unless I wanted something to eat. So you're cutting out any casual 'oh, this looks interesting, I wonder what a games cafe's like?' passing trade.

Although thinking about it, how I wish Games Workshop had had a cafe corner for all the times I had to wait for one DS or another to paint a figure / finish a game / conclude a discussion about which Codex to buy next ... they were always very friendly to the adult hangers-on and would find a chair for me if I looked sufficiently exhausted!

But ...

Errata wrote: »

I've never come across a board game cafe before, it's terra incognita to me -

Yes, me too! I've gone with DH to one of the large cafe chains at the NEC to find a Go club meeting, and I know DS1 meets his (computer) GameDev friends in cafes and pubs to work together, and I've seen plenty of pubs and cafes with board games in the corner, even seen them played sometimes, but I've never heard of a specific board game cafe.

Errata wrote: »

but..... What happens when bits of a game go missing? What happens if three different groups of customers all want the same board game? What happens if kids are shrieking with excitement and driving adult 'gamers' nuts? What happens when drinks get spilled on the games? What happens if a few 'well oiled' adults turn up to try out the novelty value of a board games cafe?

All good questions ...

paddyrg wrote: »

An alternative business model (just because one should explore alternatives, however insane, just in case there's a nugget of brilliance in there) could be that you charge a (say) £5/hr cover charge, then all drinks are free.

You'd want to put a limit on how many drinks per hour were free and probably exclude the alcohol, some people drink A Lot!

paddyrg wrote: »

Maybe also offer takeaway at normal prices.

If you've got the capacity to serve, especially in the early days, I'd definitely recommend takeaway at normal prices, just to get people in, even if they're not (or think they're not) your target market.

paddyrg wrote: »

Or a 'coffee subscription' where for a fixed amount (maybe a fiver a week or maybe tenner a week and twenty a month, sliding scale of some sort, whatever the market will stand) you can have all the coffee you can drink between 7am and 10am, during the commuter rush. Not many !!!!!!!!!!s around at that time, so your trade will mostly be loyal commuters and if your subscription scheme also includes cake/sandwich incentives/discounts for lunch/spin the wheel every renewal day for a free pastry scheme you may get some good regular upsell. Best of all, it's regular guaranteed money, and you can predict your sales and know your cashflow is secure.

Definitely worth thinking about, although I wish I could work out what banned word paddy used! :rotfl:

Errata

Yes, me too! I've gone with DH to one of the large cafe chains at the NEC to find a Go club meeting, and I know DS1 meets his (computer) GameDev friends in cafes and pubs to work together, and I've seen plenty of pubs and cafes with board games in the corner, even seen them played sometimes, but I've never heard of a specific board game cafe.

Google tells me the first one opened in the UK in Oxford and has 1800 games. A second one is due to open in Hackney. Looks like the OP is planning to open a third one, I wonder where? Oxford and Hackney are pretty much unique places where unique things happen, but sometimes for not very long.

EssentialParadox

So I worked out a new design. It's a little more refined, more storage space and more counter area.



Phill99 — I feel you were right about moving that kitchen doorway around into the other corridor. We thought about who would need garage access more —front of house or kitchen staff— and even factoring in food deliveries we decided front of house. We get a bit of extra space and and look(!)— dirty dishes are now hidden!!









Haven't decided which arrangement to have of the stove and fridge by the doorway though…

EssentialParadox

Errata wrote: »

Google tells me the first one opened in the UK in Oxford and has 1800 games. A second one is due to open in Hackney. Looks like the OP is planning to open a third one, I wonder where? Oxford and Hackney are pretty much unique places where unique things happen, but sometimes for not very long.

Ahh, very good detective work Errata!

I think if you looked into it a bit more you'd see both those cafes are based on a board game cafe in Toronto called Snakes & Lattes. I was living in Canada the last 3 years and got to know the people who work there quite well (I even worked there for a short period) and I saw them grow to be incredibly and globally successful in a very short space of time.

The Oxford cafe is the only one currently open (so it's possible we'll be the 2nd to open if we can beat the Hackney one!), they're doing well and I've seen the plans for the Hackney one but I don't think either one fully takes advantage of the most successful aspects of the original in Toronto. So we're doing things a little differently (I won't say what right now ) Another little trick up our sleeves: the friend I mentioned who is coming to help us get the cafe up and running? He is a Snakes & Lattes manager and head of marketing. He's really excited and so are we.

Errata wrote: »

I've never come across a board game cafe before, it's terra incognita to me -but..... What happens when bits of a game go missing? What happens if three different groups of customers all want the same board game? What happens if kids are shrieking with excitement and driving adult 'gamers' nuts? What happens when drinks get spilled on the games? What happens if a few 'well oiled' adults turn up to try out the novelty value of a board games cafe?

Ways they've dealt with it at Snakes & Lattes is that, well, you just have to deal with it. Once a game gets beaten up enough it gets retired and a new copy is opened for the cafe. There are always multiple copies for games that are very popular. Kid gamers have been pretty well-behaved in my experience — The types of families and people you get for a board game cafe are rarely the rowdy type.

'Well-oiled' adults? Haha :rotfl:

paddyrg wrote: »

Game sales 5% sounds very high! No, really, think about it - that's a game *sold* for every 20 covers

Five families of 4 come in for a glass of juice. Or you're on a commuter path and sell a filter coffee to 2 people a morning and on their way home - one of them has to buy a game a week - that's what 5% looks like.

An alternative business model (just because one should explore alternatives, however insane, just in case there's a nugget of brilliance in there) could be that you charge a (say) £5/hr cover charge, then all drinks are free. £5/hr is probably what you'd get from a couple of cups of tea anyway. Maybe also offer takeaway at normal prices.

Or a 'coffee subscription' where for a fixed amount (maybe a fiver a week or maybe tenner a week and twenty a month, sliding scale of some sort, whatever the market will stand) you can have all the coffee you can drink between 7am and 10am, during the commuter rush. Not many !!!!!!!!!!s around at that time, so your trade will mostly be loyal commuters and if your subscription scheme also includes cake/sandwich incentives/discounts for lunch/spin the wheel every renewal day for a free pastry scheme you may get some good regular upsell. Best of all, it's regular guaranteed money, and you can predict your sales and know your cashflow is secure.

Our projected %'s are based on what Snakes & Lattes experienced. I think 5% is pretty conservative actually. You'd be surprised how easy it is to show a family a simple £10 game that the kids adore and the parents end up buying a copy when they leave.

Cover charge inc. unlimited drinks is an interesting idea! Only issue I see is that it could get confusing as we'd need special rules for the more expensive drinks (milkshakes, alcohol…) as we can't give unlimited of those for free! We've definitely been looking into subscription, loyalty options and 'spin-the-wheel' type offers. We might wait until after we've opened to figure that out though.

EssentialParadox

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

But ...Yes, me too! I've gone with DH to one of the large cafe chains at the NEC to find a Go club meeting, and I know DS1 meets his (computer) GameDev friends in cafes and pubs to work together, and I've seen plenty of pubs and cafes with board games in the corner, even seen them played sometimes, but I've never heard of a specific board game cafe.

You actually sound like the perfect customer for us Sue!

What makes a board game cafe unique is that it's not so much like a normal cafe but it's more of a leisure activity. You'll come in, be seated, order some food or drinks, and get some very intimate customer service; we will have staff on-hand who are specifically trained to teach all the new and amazing games most people haven't even heard of!

So, rather than a casual cafe, it's more of a fun, planned outing. I guess you'd say it's a bit similar to going to the cinema. You pay admission and get ready to settle in for a few hours of entertainment, while eating some yummy food and snacks!

I think the type of place it is can be seen in our opening times — 11am - 11pm — we're not even open during the morning rush period. We expect the evenings to actually be our busiest period.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

If you've got the capacity to serve, especially in the early days, I'd definitely recommend takeaway at normal prices, just to get people in, even if they're not (or think they're not) your target market.

We are probably not going to do takeaway. There are loads of 'normal' cafes around and, like I say, the food isn't really our draw — it'll be the gaming!