All electric house. Poor EPC rating and no heating. Help!

Maikeru

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Crude starting point for understanding you dwelling which no one here has any idea about :

Full panel needs an EPC of C and preferably B. Infra needs and EPC of B. Gas can cope with B or C and to some extent D. This is the ramp to 2015, unless a concious decision is made to go full central heating and bite the cost, a mix of living area ~v~ all other areas is a good economic compromise. Panel will take care of bedrooms - kitchen - bathroom etc and the area you will regardless of lifestyle spend you time in is your living room.


It's an end-of-terrace 3 storey flat roofed 1970 townhouse with an EPC of E (probably F now that we've removed the old storage heaters :-) ). We've got double glazing and getting cavity wall insulation in. Thinking about ground floor insulation and flat roof insulation depending on cost.

Are you saying that even if we had gas it wouldn't be sufficient to heat a house with an 'E' rating?

In that case we will go for a fan-assisted storage heater in the living room (will one be enough for 26'7 x 14'2 living area with a 14'1 x 7'7 open plan kitchen) and panel heaters in the bedrooms. Will look at switching from Southern Electric to a more affordable E7 tariff.

I spoke to a neighbour today and their underfloor heating is broken as well (except for the living room on the first floor; all of ground floor and 1st floor kitchen is broken). They're using underfloor heating in the living room (which they say isn't that great) and storage heaters on the top floor for the bedrooms, the combination of which must be costing a small fortune. They were quite keen on the gas idea so we'll see what happens. Perhaps not much point though if you're saying gas can't heat an E-rated house?

macman

If the vendor said that the UFH was 'fine', and it isn't, then why aren't you pursuing a civil claim against them for damages? They don't have to disclose any faults, but any answers they do give have to be truthful.
But I hope that you got that in writing, otherwise it's your word against theirs, and you need to prove it.
Madness to dispense with the NSH's, they are the only sensible option in such a property unless you want to triple your heating and hot water bills. If your OH doesn't 'like the look of them', then replace them with more modern ones that are easier on the eye.
Mixing the two systems on E7 is even more crazy, as you'll only get the night rate discount on 1 NSH, and pay a premium for all the panel heaters running on day rate.
If you can afford the capital cost, mains gas is the way to go, as it will instantly increase the value of the property.

Cardew

Maikeru wrote: »

Are you saying that even if we had gas it wouldn't be sufficient to heat a house with an 'E' rating?

They were quite keen on the gas idea so we'll see what happens. Perhaps not much point though if you're saying gas can't heat an E-rated house?

I don't think that is what Richie stated.(or meant)


Your property will require X thousand kWh pa. to heat adequately and provide sufficient hot water. Given it has poor insulation let us say 20,000kWh pa, plus, say 4,000kWh for other electricity consumption(lights/TVs, appliances etc.*


To provide that 20,000kWh with normal(non E7) electricity will cost at today's rates around £2300 on the cheapest tariff; the additional 4,000kWh will cost around £400. so £2,700 total.


With Storage heaters and E7 it will depend on how much of the total 24,000kWh you can use at cheap rate. With 60% it will cost £2,200 with 70% £2,000.


With Gas, assuming 90% efficiency for a new boiler, you will need 22,220kWh to provide 20,000kWh for heating and hot water. The cost of that gas, plus the 4,000kWh electricity will cost around £1,400.


You need to factor in that a gas boiler will need servicing and will have a finite life.


* Obviously the assumption of 20,000/4000kWh is just that - an assumption! However it is a guideline and you can make your own assumptions.

usignuolo

Get another quote for underfloor heating. My nephew just had it installed and it cost nothing like the quote you have been given. Get a specialist in ufh to quote you.

Maikeru

Basically, this is what spooked us about storage heaters (from the Greenage website):

"Unlike a battery that will retain a lot of its charge until required, the storage heater will begin to leak heat almost immediately. Obviously the longer the storage heater can retain the heat, the more useful it is and therefore companies will make you pay more for these products.

As a rule of thumb though, a storage heater will lose the majority of its stored heat over a 12 hour period. This means that if you get in from work at 7pm, the majority of useful heat will already have dissipated into the home – so the storage heater will not provide you with the temperature uplift you would expect from a traditional heating system.

Obviously this can be mitigated to a certain extent by having a really well insulated house, since the heat can’t escape the property, however any solid brick or uninsulated cavity wall home is going to struggle."


We ARE out every day until 7pm and the house in not well insulated, so how likely are we to still have heat when we get back in the evening?


In regards to pursuing a civil claim, we have it in writing in an email from him to the estate agent (though he did put 'to my knowledge'). We have been advised that there may be a form our conveyancer would have asked him to sign regarding the condition of the heating system - we need to wait till she gets back from holiday next week to chase this. We may start with a letter first to see if there's a way of resolving it amicably.

Normal electric underfloor heating under laminate wouldn't cost anywhere near 20 grand, but I guess our electrician meant that's what it would cost to actually dig up the concrete and replace the original stuff.

Pincher

Maikeru wrote: »

Normal electric underfloor heating under laminate wouldn't cost anywhere near 20 grand, but I guess our electrician meant that's what it would cost to actually dig up the concrete and replace the original stuff.

If you threw out storage heaters because of "the look", wait till you:

See how odd it will look near the skirting board,
The 20mm you need to plane off the bottom of the doors,
and the height discrepancy between the room and the corridor, and the trip hazzard.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Maikeru wrote: »

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Crude starting point for understanding you dwelling which no one here has any idea about :

Full panel needs an EPC of C and preferably B. Infra needs and EPC of B. Gas can cope with B or C and to some extent D. This is the ramp to 2015, unless a concious decision is made to go full central heating and bite the cost, a mix of living area ~v~ all other areas is a good economic compromise. Panel will take care of bedrooms - kitchen - bathroom etc and the area you will regardless of lifestyle spend you time in is your living room.


It's an end-of-terrace 3 storey flat roofed 1970 townhouse with an EPC of E (probably F now that we've removed the old storage heaters :-) ). We've got double glazing and getting cavity wall insulation in. Thinking about ground floor insulation and flat roof insulation depending on cost.

Are you saying that even if we had gas it wouldn't be sufficient to heat a house with an 'E' rating?

In that case we will go for a fan-assisted storage heater in the living room (will one be enough for 26'7 x 14'2 living area with a 14'1 x 7'7 open plan kitchen) and panel heaters in the bedrooms. Will look at switching from Southern Electric to a more affordable E7 tariff.

I spoke to a neighbour today and their underfloor heating is broken as well (except for the living room on the first floor; all of ground floor and 1st floor kitchen is broken). They're using underfloor heating in the living room (which they say isn't that great) and storage heaters on the top floor for the bedrooms, the combination of which must be costing a small fortune. They were quite keen on the gas idea so we'll see what happens. Perhaps not much point though if you're saying gas can't heat an E-rated house?

Are you saying that even if we had gas it wouldn't be sufficient to heat a house with an 'E' rating?

- I'm not saying gas won't heat an E or F or G H - I'm saying if you live in a sieve and everything you put in leaks out
- fix the leak first, otherwise good money will be leeched from your budget supporting monthly fuel bills

the combination of which must be costing a small fortune

- wrong again my friend, you seem incapable of grasping the self evident, the startlingly obvious
- its self evidently the case that your neighbour is paying 60% less for night-rate water and space heating than you
- your neighbour might be paying more than gas, but very considerably less than than your core rate panel
- and gas my friend is not an option, Paul Daniels can't help, you are off-gas, deal with the reality of your situation

I hope you find a solution, but unless you get neighbours to pay you have to work with what you have. With your EPC .. .. .. (1) stop reading 'greener' sites, its the equivalent of mixing custard & creosote - it just will not work. (2) Sack the wife they might not like big fat storage cans - but those heaters were your route to a 60% saving. (3) Sack the glossy magazines, they lead you to vadoma when you really need to keep your head, and wallet, above ground.

Heat your living area adequately, panel others rooms cheaply - use as required, get to Easter - start again. Best of luck.

Maikeru

- "fix the leak first, otherwise good money will be leeched from your budget supporting monthly fuel bills"

What leak are you referring to? Other than cavity wall/floor insulation there's not much that can be done.


- "wrong again my friend, you seem incapable of grasping the self evident, the startlingly obvious
- its self evidently the case that your neighbour is paying 60% less for night-rate water and space heating than you"

Ok, so are you saying that running shaky 1970 underfloor heating at peak rate in the living room combined with storage heaters on economy 7 in the bedrooms would be cheaper than storage heaters in all rooms?


People on here seem to be focusing a lot on the 'stupidity' of throwing away the storage heaters. The fact is, they were very old and if storage heating turns out to be the road we go down then we would have replaced them with modern fan-assisted ones anyway. I'm still not entirely averse to doing so but I haven't had a clear answer to whether they're the best solution for a working couple in a below average insulated house (since presumably all the heat will be gone by 7pm)?

It's not like we'll have the panel heaters in every room all the time. 3 hours in the evening in the living room and 2 hours in the bedroom (1 hour before we go to bed and 1 hour when we get up). That's 5 hours of panel heat a day. Are you saying it will still be cheaper to run two storage heaters every day (and there will still be enough heat left in them in the evening when we get home)?

I know the gas isn't a strong possibility in the near future; as I said I'll need 4 out of 16 neighbours to chip in and it's not like it'll be an overnight decision for them. Still worth a try though.

Cardew

Maikeru wrote: »

-
Ok, so are you saying that running shaky 1970 underfloor heating at peak rate in the living room combined with storage heaters on economy 7 in the bedrooms would be cheaper than storage heaters in all rooms?

People on here seem to be focusing a lot on the 'stupidity' of throwing away the storage heaters. The fact is, they were very old and if storage heating turns out to be the road we go down then we would have replaced them with modern fan-assisted ones anyway. I'm still not entirely averse to doing so but I haven't had a clear answer to whether they're the best solution for a working couple in a below average insulated house (since presumably all the heat will be gone by 7pm)?

It's not like we'll have the panel heaters in every room all the time. 3 hours in the evening in the living room and 2 hours in the bedroom (1 hour before we go to bed and 1 hour when we get up). That's 5 hours of panel heat a day. Are you saying it will still be cheaper to run two storage heaters every day (and there will still be enough heat left in them in the evening when we get home)?

You do raise a very valid issue and unfortunately it isn't possible to give you a 'clear answer'!


Obviously the crucial issues for you are the heat retention qualities of modern Night Storage Heaters and how much consumption you can divert to off-peak rates - Hot water/appliances etc.


By far and away the biggest criticism of the old storage heaters was their heat leakage during the day. Several people have reported on MSE that the newer models are far better at heat retention, but I have not seen any independent reports that give detail.


Perhaps the best path would be to initially buy cheap fan heaters and oil filled rads(with timers) until the gas issue is resolved.


P.S.
As you have removed the storage heaters, is your house correctly wired for non-E7?

john1

Maikeru wrote: »

- "fix the leak first, otherwise good money will be leeched from your budget supporting monthly fuel bills"

What leak are you referring to? Other than cavity wall/floor insulation there's not much that can be done.

I used to carry out air pressure testing on new build houses in order to meet the building regulations We basically used a large industrial fan to depressurized the building and observer where the draughts originated.

The areas of concern in domestic brick built cavity wall construction homes, where air leakage occurred in my experience was as follows

Plumbing –heating, water and waste pipes badly sealed when penetrating the building through external walls. this allowed air to leak around them if not tightly sealed. Where pipes run in boxing that leads eventually into the loft/ outside I found these were particular areas which often needed attention.

Check under baths / showers trays/kitchen sinks/ washing machine/dishwashers and dryers and around toilet soil pipes for gaps. Difficult to reach but potential area of leakage

Any penetration of the outside walls / loft by any service ie TV /telephone/ electric/gas which potential leakage areas when not sealed.

Do not use every day expanding foam seal for sealing PVC cables otherwise within 10 - 15 years the cable may melt through chemical reaction. Consider using a fire seal such as this

Down lighters not correctly fitted and sealed.

Window Trickle vents damaged or not fitted correctly.

Extractor fans vents not sealed.

If the floor has a gap between the skirting board and floor surface, then it should be sealed i.e. silicon.

Unused fire place chimneys can be easily sealed by a DIY chimney balloon.

If you have an existing older properties the seal around opening double glazed window /external doors may have distorted with age and not correctly sealing. Push a sheet of paper around the closed edge of a window to check. It should not penetrate. Easy and inexpensive to DIY fix.

If a bedroom is above any cold area such as a garage /porch/passage way the floor needs good insulation and air sealing.

Loft hatches should be airtight i.e. put a foam draught extruder around the perimeter and, insulate on the hatch itself.

If single glazed consider secondary glazing.

Each of the above may, on their own, seem trivial, possibly pedantic - but when combined the effective gap area can exceed a permanently open large window/door.

For a more detailed technical description see this