Is this descrimination legal?

mattcanary

kwmlondon wrote: »

Yes, Prince Charles had a pretty rough upbringing by all accounts, and a black friend of mine has had a fairly pleasant childhood but that's not adding much to the debate really is it? My friend can't become King.

No, what you have to do is look at the facts, and statistics are very handy.

When you've got scary numbers you need to deal with them.

There are just 85 black professors out of 18,510 in the UK and the number has barely changed in eight years. The percent of black professors (0.4%) shows a striking disparity with the proportion of black students, which has increased steadily each year and now stands at 6%.

85.

Out of 18,510.

Come on.

When you've got bare statistics like that it needs a response.

If it was a bit of a difference I'd understand some reticance, but the numbers are just appalling.

We don't have much in the way of obvious discrimination in UK universities, so why are so few black people becoming professors?

Because it's much easier for white people.

Can you explain why it is easier for a white person such as BillJones from his upbringing, as opposed to a black person from a similar background?

kwmlondon

BillJones wrote: »

We pay our interns £40k (pro rata). Please, stop making things up, you are looking more and more foolish at this point.

Not all internships pay:

https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns

And I stand by the fact that most internships go to people via connections. Your company may be very nice, you may have a really good approach to finding people with potential rather than taking on the kids of friends of yours, but not everyone does that.

Not through racism or anything like that, it's just that a lot of companies/individuals do favors for friends. Are you telling me that Tony Blair's kids are not going to be able to trade on a bit of dad's influence? That's an extreme example, but I got work experience in a recording studio as a kid because my mum knew the owner. That's how it works.

Southend1

kwmlondon wrote: »

If you have too much of an emphasis on one side you balance it. When you drive too far in one lane you correct by driving in the other direction. You don't refuse to turn the wheel on principle and crash into a wall.

We are heavily balanced in favor of white, middle-class, heterosexual men in this country. We need to balance that. Seems more than fair enough to me.

I won't waste a nano-second in feeling sorry for a group of people who are privileged when they find that another group may possibly be offered some of the opportunities they've monopolised for themselves. Boo hoo! Poor little privileged majority. Awww!

So the cure for racism is.........

More racism!

Well thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Best laugh I've had all week. :rotfl:

kwmlondon

mattcanary wrote: »

Can you explain why it is easier for a white person such as BillJones from his upbringing, as opposed to a black person from a similar background?

Don't ask me, I'm not black. I think we should ask black students what holds them back and listen to them instead of the opinions of people who have absolutely no idea what is stopping young black people in university progressing through academia to become professors. Because they are clearly intelligent to enough to get in to university (they meet the same grades as other students).

Just in case you don't know any black students/academics I will relay that one of the major things holding black students back is the fact that they only ever see white people in higher positions in academia. They don't feel like those kinds of jobs are for "people like them." Which is why I'd be inclined to restrict some professorships to BEM applicants.

There are over 18,000 professors, only 85 are black. If you made a few only open to BEM people you'd not adversely affect the rest, not really. If you have just 17,900 positions open to you instead of 18,000 are you really that hard done by? No. It reduces your chances of getting a job less than if you used a nicer type of aftershave.

Southend1

kwmlondon wrote: »

Don't ask me, I'm not black. I think we should ask black students what holds them back and listen to them instead of the opinions of people who have absolutely no idea what is stopping young black people in university progressing through academia to become professors. Because they are clearly intelligent to enough to get in to university (they meet the same grades as other students).

Just in case you don't know any black students/academics I will relay that one of the major things holding black students back is the fact that they only ever see white people in higher positions in academia. They don't feel like those kinds of jobs are for "people like them." Which is why I'd be inclined to restrict some professorships to BEM applicants.

There are over 18,000 professors, only 85 are black. If you made a few only open to BEM people you'd not adversely affect the rest, not really. If you have just 17,900 positions open to you instead of 18,000 are you really that hard done by? No. It reduces your chances of getting a job less than if you used a nicer type of aftershave.

While the point about BAME people and women being underrepresented at professorial level is valid, I think you're somewhat misguided regarding the make up of the student and academic population. I work in a university and I can assure you it is extremely diverse. My department had over 100 postgraduate students this year and while there were a few white faces, the majority were black or Asian. The teaching staff in the department are pretty diverse too - until recently we had two professors in our group, both of whom were of Asian origin.

Bantex_2

kwmlondon wrote: »

Oh, and I really wish we were having this argument in a pub! It would be so much better with beer and pork scratchings!

So you also wish to exclude Jewish people fro the debate?

BillJones

kwmlondon wrote: »

Not all internships pay.

I know. You implied that none did, so I corrected you.

You implied this as you said that interns need to be able to work for nothing. I gave you a counterexample that proved that your statement was incorrect.

I honestly feel that you ave a serious problem with logic, and following arguments, or are being deliberately tendentious at this point. You must understand, surely, that an absolute statement is contradicted by a single example, and that an counterexample does not take even one step to re-establishing your original broad claim to be a truth.

You must also, surely, understand that favouring person A, because they share one irrelevant characteristic with person B (who was disfavoured previously), is not a just act.

You will not improve equality by picking the son of a rich doctor over me, in the name of correcting "privilege", as he was born more privileged than I, yet that is what you seek to do, and you seek to do it because you are a racist who will judge me on my skin colour.

You then seem upset that people are upset by your racism. Do you not know that most people are against it. It is pretty much only you who wants to make racist distinctions. This is not the 70s, racism in recruitment is wrong nowadays.

BillJones

kwmlondon wrote: »

Don't ask me, I'm not black. I think we should ask black students what holds them back and listen to them instead

What holds them back, in part, is racist attitudes. Racist attitudes such as yours. I hope that one day you'll look beyond a person's colour, and see that it is not what defines them. Until then, I am afraid that I honestly pity you. Racists need fighting everywhere, and this includes you.

Edited to say, you would do well to heed the words once spoken by a great man

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

You would deny his children that right, and you would deny it to millions of others.

CKhalvashi

Bantex wrote: »

I would suggest that a lot of people from ethnic minorities use the same excuse for their own lack of achievment. Seems to be a lot more prevalent amongst some cultures than others.

I have to say, I really do agree with this.

My main concern when recruiting is whether someone is a good match for the company based on experience and what we need, rather than rigidly sticking to a job description, rather than looking for the 'perfect candidate' according to the description and sticking with that rigidly. No discrimination there, just occasionally on behalf of the jobseeker bad luck.

Mishomeister

kwmlondon wrote: »

Yes, Prince Charles had a pretty rough upbringing by all accounts, and a black friend of mine has had a fairly pleasant childhood but that's not adding much to the debate really is it? My friend can't become King.

Can you become a King? If not how is your friend more disadvantaged than you are?