Builders amending estimates after querying

therealmg

Hi I was wondering if anybody could help and suggest where I stand with the following problem.


I agreed for work to be done by 2 tradesmen to replace my bathroom (tiles on floor and wall, replace toilet and sink, refit bath) and install a gas hob and new sink in kitchen. They quoted a figure for 4-5 days on which I considered the hourly rate and agreed by email. I paid the inital amount they requested and £300 extra incase they needed to buy additional materials.


It turns out there was a problem with damp and I was sent photos having had the bathroom inner wall ripped down and the floor boards ripped up - of which a couple of the joists were rotten and did need replacing. This was all on day one.


Day two and I then get more photos having had all the bottom kitchen units removed, to show the damp had spread to the floor boards due to a leaky pipe under the kitchen cabinet that had gone undetected. I also receive further photos showing holes in the partition wall *which was dry the day before* saying it pretty much needed coming down. Three quarters of the plaster board of had been removed from the kitchen wall and more of the floor boards ripped up. The text just said please advise how to proceed. They also demanded a further £1400 in cash that day as they'd spent all the original money on materials (but couldn't provide the receipts but have since done so).
I left work and we came up with a plan of action - replace the joists that needed to be done, patch up the partition wall and use DPC and DPM to protect any new timbers from what we believed was the source of the damp in the form of a concrete slab in the corner which couldn't be removed due to Partition walls etc. We verbally agreed a fee of £2,200 to do the work but I requested the estimate immediately because I wanted to speak to the insurer. At that time I didn't have the additional budget to cover all the further work and i'm unable to get a bank loan to cover this. Had they advised me they were going to continue taking a sledgehammer and crowbar to my home I would have told them to stop.
Day three and they proceeded to rip up yet more floor, joists and start removing the decking outside - none of which I had consented to so with the help of a friend in the industry we told them to down tools so I could assess further and end up laying the new joists and floor myself with a joiner who offered to help having seen the state of what i'd been left with.


I kept asking for the estimates and 5 days later I finally receive an invoice showing the £2,200 + £115 for sourcing additional materials and a further £370 for more work which had been detailed but was doubled up in the details of the original £2,200 labour charge.


I queried the additional money that seemed to be doubled up by email and explained that I had quite simply run out of cash, didn't have a bathroom or kitchen (I have a toilet not fixed to anything) and that I would pay the £2,200 and £115 for time already spent (even though the hourly rate was more than they originally quoted/invoiced for the tiling work) and based on what i'd already given them, the costs of the materials I owed them a further £535 but they were asking for a further £1430. The invoice also said 4-5 days work when he had been in the property for 2.5 days,


I spoke to him on the phone and explained the situation that I just simply couldn't source the further monies to pay him for both time spent to date AND the additional work as well as pay for the new floor, new tiles that I don't think needed to come off in the first instance and make my home habitable again. I am genuinely sorry that I cannot ask them to continue the work but i've also got to the point that I don't want them in my home anymore and being able to wash/cook is my biggest priority right now.


I received a a whatsapp message saying he had done the invoices wrong and instead of the £370 that i'd queried he was now proposing to charge £800 for 4.5 hours sourcing materials instead(i.esimilar to the £115 original sourcing materials bit I'd agreed to pay as a good will gesture) - as well as the £2,200 I'd already agreed to by email.


I have now gone back questionning how the original hourly rates based on my first invoice had all of a sudden nearly increased by a third and have refused to pay anymore than I agreed to via email previously.


I am yet to have his response apart from texts telling me I need to cover the £1450 invoice (from the whatsapp message) immediately.


Do I have grounds to refuse to pay any more or am I stuck with this bill? Are builders allowed to reallocate time previously detailed to something else just so they can get paid what they want after it has been queried due to discrepancy? I've already paid them MORE than the pro rata amount of the original invoice.


I really don't want to be taken to the small claims court if I know I'm going to end up paying them and court costs - plus the stress of the situation but I can't see how I'm in the wrong. If anybody can help advise I would really appreciate it... Thank you.

zaax

What do you mean by 'sourcing materials'? He should be going to his favorite supplier and getting them. Cost nil.

Ask for a bill in writing, with the excuse that your bank needs it for a loan and see what happens.

It all sounds very doggy and anyway you need to find out where the damp is coming from as it will only damage the new fittings

therealmg

We have a Selco five miles away which is where all the original materials came from. He also went to a timber merchant near where he lives to buy the floor boards and 4x2 timber. He is charging for his time to buy this stuff. All the materials had been paid for by the money I gave him already.

therealmg

We have found two causes of damp - the first was the pipe underneath the sink and we believe that the out and return pipes that are encased by this concrete 'plinth' have been leaking. The two worst timbers were touching the concrete and there was so much rubble underneath the floorboards left by the builders that did the flat conversion that there was no air flow.


The new timbers put in have been treated and covered with DPC at the ends and we've used DPM on the concrete to stop any further contact. We are also going to by-pass the heating system pipes and put new ones in above floor level which will stop any further damage. I need to check drainage outside too but right now my main concern is getting a kitchen and bathroom again!


I'll speak to him and request the quote but was also thinking of saying that I want to get an opinion with trading standards etc to see whether I am in the wrong before paying anything further. It just feels all too convenient that I agree to pay for some sourcing materials time and now it's increased by about 3 hours and at double the rate!

patman99

Estimates are so-called because that is exactly what they are, an estimate of how much the job will cost based on what can be seen.

In your case, the builders gave you an estimate based on the job in hand but subsequently after beginning the job, they discovered that having removed the bathroom fixtures and kitchen cabinets in preperation for the refit, there was an un-seen damp problem.

As a result, the price has increased to include all the new materials that are required to repair the un-seen damage. The builder had to purchase and collect the materials, hence charging you for this.

therealmg

Thanks Patman99 - I agree that the work increased and so I need to pay more had they finished the whole job - they haven't even started on the original work.


What i'm questionning is the fact that I queried the detail on an invoice (apologies if I called this an estimate before) and then the invoice was amended to rejig the figures and time spent to an area I agreed to pay previously. (for the additional materials not the original ones).
Surely when you sign up for a job like tiling you know you need to buy the grout etc and build that into an estimate/invoice and this forms part of your agreed hourly rate. Is it allowable for you then to charge so much more for going to get these materials that are known from outset?


If I owe them more money then fine I'll pay out - I just don't understand how you can re allocate time once its been queried - increase your hourly rate by a third for going shopping in a one stop shop. Also the time spent buying the materials were those required for the original job - not the additional bit. I've already agreed to that time charge as I understand that bit???


Apologies i'm rambling.

Laz123

For future reference the difference between an 'estimate' and a 'quotation' is the latter is the contract and shouldn't be changed once agreed. I always ask for the latter.

paddyrg

Builders will often estimate for free but charge for a quote. A quote requires time to investigate and spec out the job. A quote is telling you the cost, an estimate is a guess based on first impressions and trying to win your business.

therealmg

OK Thanks all my terminology was out of kilter last night. It is the invoices that have changed retrospectively after querying and have been fiddled with and it is the hourly rates that have increased which I didn't think could be done once someone has agreed to a price on a quote.

mo786uk

I assume they are not making up work and you are happy it needed doing in theory?

If the ystart eviating big time fro mthe original job - i.e taking up floors and smashign down walls it is common sense to run this by the custoemr first.

Unfortunatley when you pay a day rate you take the risk they will take the !!!!

I am not sure I totally understand your question though - I assume you agreed an hourly or daily rate at the start per man. It soudns liek you are querying how long it took them to do something? i.e they are saying it took 5 hours to get materials and charging you 5 hours when you think it actually took 1?

CKhalvashi

Laz123 wrote: »

For future reference the difference between an 'estimate' and a 'quotation' is the latter is the contract and shouldn't be changed once agreed. I always ask for the latter.

Technically it can, but only if something that couldn't be seen to start comes to light.

When I had the front door replaced, one of the supporting panels was completely rottern, and ended up costing around another £200 to replace. They couldn't see this without having the door off, so that was fair enough IMO.