Small Claims: Washer Dryer

unholyangel

Idiophreak wrote: »

The service I received was what they'd normally charge £95 for. Attaching the door is just not a service they offer at all.

The second part of what you say worries me a little. Having done more research into it now, it's pretty standard for companies to either just refuse to install integrated appliances, or to have T&Cs like this company's...where they say they might not put the door on integrated appliances.

But, again, I don't know how I was supposed to know that at the time. I'm not in the industry, I didn't do much research ahead of buying the thing. The company were originally supposed to repair my old one...but it was a right off...so they gave me a quote for replacing "like for like" (which, again, I assumed meant "with a door on *like* the old one") and as I had other things to spend my time / energy on, I just went with it.

It would be like paying someone to fit a door and them turning around and saying "oh, well it's industry standard not to fit a doorknob"...how would the consumer know that?

The old one, did the same retailer supply it? How old was it and why did it fail?

Just making sure this isnt a replacement under SoGA (pretty sure it isnt from what you've said so far but never hurts to ask).

Idiophreak

unholyangel wrote: »

The old one, did the same retailer supply it? How old was it and why did it fail?

Just making sure this isnt a replacement under SoGA (pretty sure it isnt from what you've said so far but never hurts to ask).

No, the old one was in the (newbuild) flat when we moved in. Was 5 years old.

The locking mechanism broke and apparently that caused the "control circuit board" to fail. Was advised it was a write off.

Ran through the maths and repair only seemed about £40 less than getting a new machine - and would take much longer. So went for new machine.

(As it turns out, they quote repairs including VAT, but new machines without. Another thing I was just supposed to know, apparently...so the new machine was > £200 more than repair in the end. Not what I'd call a write off. Hohum).

Bantex_2

Idiophreak wrote: »

You didn't really explain. How am I, an innocent punter, supposed to know that?
ETA: And as you're apparently clued up on this stuff, can you offer any explanation as to why installing an integrated appliance costs twice as much if you don't have to put the door on?

No real reason you should know. But also no reason to assume it is all inclusive.

If you took your car for a service, would you expect them to repair any dents in the bodywork?

unholyangel

Bantex wrote: »

No real reason you should know. But also no reason to assume it is all inclusive.

If you took your car for a service, would you expect them to repair any dents in the bodywork?

No but if they were fitting new brakes, would you expect them only to put the brakes on and leave your wheel off?

Idiophreak

Bantex wrote: »

No real reason you should know. But also no reason to assume it is all inclusive.

If something's "fully fitted", I'd assume that means "all the bits fitted back together", rather than "a new bit shoved in, everything else left in bits".


Anyway, thanks all for the discussion - even though I don't feel I'm much closer to a conclusion

jacques_chirac

I've spoken to two plumbers this morning and neither would put the door back on. An integrated appliance is an appliance that fits within a unit - it is the plumbers job to get the appliance working, not to deal with the unit.

They were surprised that you paid someone to put the door back on - is there a reason you couldn't do it yourself?

Idiophreak

jacques_chirac wrote: »

I've spoken to two plumbers this morning and neither would put the door back on. An integrated appliance is an appliance that fits within a unit - it is the plumbers job to get the appliance working, not to deal with the unit.

They were surprised that you paid someone to put the door back on - is there a reason you couldn't do it yourself?

Thanks for doing some research

Out of interest, before you spoke to them, what would you have expected?

An integrated appliance is just an appliance with a door on, as far as I can see. It fits in the gap between two cupboard and there's a door on front. There *is* a dressing board that goes across the bottom, but this just pulls off, so doesn't seem to justify charging twice as much for installing the thing. Just normal hoses to attach it to the wall, nothing fancy.

It isn't "in a unit", as such. The door attaches to the appliance and is integral (for want of a better word) to it being "integrated". Without a door on, it's just a normal washer dryer.

The door needed to be modified - it needed a new hole routed out to fit the hinge in, the old one patched up etc. It wasn't as simple as screw and unscrew. As I said earlier, I assumed it would be that simple, as it's ridiculous that there's no standard for the distance between the hinges on these things. But it's easy to be an expert once you've done research.

rustyboy21

I would expect that having a washer installed, whether it was integrated or not, would be just plumbing it in, fitting to the electric supply and that's it. An integrated one has to be installed better than a free standing one, the access to pipework, electrics etc would be more restricted tha a FS one, so I would say that is why the increase in install. Did the cost actually include removal of the old one? If so the same things are involved in that.
With regards to the door being fitted, would you expect them to reimburse you , if they damaged the door on fitting it? If so then I would suggest that is why they didn't fit it and is not offered as part of the service.
T&C's are usually printed on the back of the invoice you receive on ordering a product. I have them on my paperwork with selling and installing fireplaces. Some of the T&C's on mine are as follows

We do not cut carpet
we do not take rubble away, but will bag it up for them.
We do not replaster walls, unless it has been agreed.
The room has to have all furniture removed, prior to install
we will not redirect electric cables.
etc

The amount of times I get asked that carpet is cut around a hearth is amazing, even though 1. the lads are not carpet fitters and may knacker it up, or 2. It is stated in the T&C's that they don't do it.

You can show a customer the T&C's , but cannot make them read it, you would walk out, if the retailer had to read it out to you each time. You have to take some responsibility to check you are happy with what you have ordered and from whom.

A plumber is a plumber, he is not a cabinet maker. You wouldn't expect him to Fly your plane for you , when you go on holiday would you? Why expect him to do something that he is not qualified to do and his insurance wont cover him for?

Idiophreak

rustyboy21 wrote: »

I would expect that having a washer installed, whether it was integrated or not, would be just plumbing it in, fitting to the electric supply and that's it. An integrated one has to be installed better than a free standing one, the access to pipework, electrics etc would be more restricted tha a FS one, so I would say that is why the increase in install. Did the cost actually include removal of the old one? If so the same things are involved in that.

This just isn't the case, basically.

The old (integrated) machine was between two cupboards. To simply install the machine they'd have had to have pulled it out, disconnected the electricity and hoses, reattach them to the new machine and shove it in.

My new machine (freestanding) is between a cupboard and a wall with the same attachments. There's simply no difference at all in the work and the new space is much smaller to work in.

Also, any firms that *do* agree to install integrated machines (now I've done research) *will* reattach the door if it's as simple as screwing it off and putting the new one on. So expecting them to do this isn't wildly off the mark.

It's also worth noting that they're *not plumbers*...they're a firm that supply, deliver and install appliances.

So do I expect someone who's job it is to install appliances to have all the skills and/or tools required to install appliances? Yes.

It's interesting, though, that you expect them to be able to deal with the electrics fine (although they're not electricians), but don't expect them to be able to unscrew and screw on a door safely...why is that?

rustyboy21 wrote: »

With regards to the door being fitted, would you expect them to reimburse you , if they damaged the door on fitting it? If so then I would suggest that is why they didn't fit it and is not offered as part of the service.

Yes, of course, I expect any professional tradesman I engage to have appropriate insurance or otherwise the means to make good any damage they cause in the course of their work. But I'd also expect them to repair the kitchen vinyl if they damaged that, or the new machine, if they damaged that, or anything else in the kitchen...So I don't think liability for repair is why they don't do it.

rustyboy21 wrote: »

T&C's are usually printed on the back of the invoice you receive on ordering a product. I have them on my paperwork with selling and installing fireplaces. Some of the T&C's on mine are as follows


We do not cut carpet
we do not take rubble away, but will bag it up for them.
We do not replaster walls, unless it has been agreed.
The room has to have all furniture removed, prior to install
we will not redirect electric cables.

etc

The amount of times I get asked that carpet is cut around a hearth is amazing, even though 1. the lads are not carpet fitters and may knacker it up, or 2. It is stated in the T&C's that they don't do it.

You can show a customer the T&C's , but cannot make them read it, you would walk out, if the retailer had to read it out to you each time. You have to take some responsibility to check you are happy with what you have ordered and from whom.

Right, so you've got a question that's *so frequently* asked by consumers (as they assume you'll do it, presumably) that you explicitly state beforehand that you won't do it. So what would you do if you forgot to attach the T&Cs and they turned around and said "but surely the price included cutting the carpet!"?

rustyboy21 wrote: »

A plumber is a plumber, he is not a cabinet maker. You wouldn't expect him to Fly your plane for you , when you go on holiday would you? Why expect him to do something that he is not qualified to do and his insurance wont cover him for?

Again, this wasn't a plumber. This was someone paid to provide, deliver and install an integrated washer dryer. Furthermore, I didn't even realise that a cabinet maker was required for this job at all. As I said, I made the assumption that by explicitly requesting a "like for like" machine, this would ensure getting one that was a straightforward replacement for the old one.

If you got a sparky in to fit a socket for you and he turned around and said "well, I'm not a pilot, so of course I can't finish the job!" how would you feel? Would you say something like "why didn't you tell me I'd need a pilot to finish this job?" bet you might be tempted to...

If you'd have told me before this that I'd need a cabinet maker just to install a washing machine, I'd have thought you were having a laugh.

rustyboy21

Idiophreak wrote: »

This just isn't the case, basically.

The old (integrated) machine was between two cupboards. To simply install the machine they'd have had to have pulled it out, disconnected the electricity and hoses, reattach them to the new machine and shove it in.

My new machine (freestanding) is between a cupboard and a wall with the same attachments. There's simply no difference at all in the work and the new space is much smaller to work in.
If you were given a price in the store, for fitting an integrated appliance and it was dearer than a FS one, this is down to the fact that there is more work involved in installing one in most situations. If my Dishwasher goes Kaput in the future, I will have to have the worktop off, the door taken off,kick boards removed the cable from the old DW rewired onto the new appliance, as it is fitted onto a fused spur, bedded into tiles, so therefore it is a lot more work involved and will cost more to do.

It's also worth noting that they're *not plumbers*...they're a firm that supply, deliver and install appliances. They are still classed as plumbers. If they were kitchen fitters they would be charging you £100's to do the job

So do I expect someone who's job it is to install appliances to have all the skills and/or tools required to install appliances? Yes.

It's interesting, though, that you expect them to be able to deal with the electrics fine (although they're not electricians), but don't expect them to be able to unscrew and screw on a door safely...why is that? But you have already stated that the door had to be reworked in order to fit new hinges in different places, that is not a 2 minute job ( re read your last posts)

Yes, of course, I expect any professional tradesman I engage to have appropriate insurance or otherwise the means to make good any damage they cause in the course of their work. But I'd also expect them to repair the kitchen vinyl if they damaged that, or the new machine, if they damaged that, or anything else in the kitchen...So I don't think liability for repair is why they don't do it. They wont do it, as they are not qualified to do it. If it was just a matter of re screwing the door back on then they most likely would, but as said above, it wasn't

Right, so you've got a question that's *so frequently* asked by consumers (as they assume you'll do it, presumably) that you explicitly state beforehand that you won't do it. So what would you do if you forgot to attach the T&Cs and they turned around and said "but surely the price included cutting the carpet!"?
There is no way T&C's are not attached, they are on the back of the order form. The contract is signed instore and the signature box has a tick box, which states they have read the T&C's and they initial in the box. They also get a call 2 days prior to fitting stating that they need to do as I have said in my post, prior to the lads calling out, otherwise there will be an additional fitting charge if they have to rebook. It doesn't matter who the person is. If they are elderly the lads will move furniture out the way of where they are fitting,not empty the room, but will not cut carpet. We supply a list of independent carpet fitters to let the customer sort it themselves

Again, this wasn't a plumber. This was someone paid to provide, deliver and install an integrated washer dryer. Furthermore, I didn't even realise that a cabinet maker was required for this job at all. As I said, I made the assumption that by explicitly requesting a "like for like" machine, this would ensure getting one that was a straightforward replacement for the old one.

If you got a sparky in to fit a socket for you and he turned around and said "well, I'm not a pilot, so of course I can't finish the job!" how would you feel? Would you say something like "why didn't you tell me I'd need a pilot to finish this job?" bet you might be tempted to... But you have already said it was a bigger job than even you thought it would be. How would the fitters know? As said, it was a simple screw back on, then they would have done it.

If you'd have told me before this that I'd need a cabinet maker just to install a washing machine, I'd have thought you were having a laugh.

Off your previous post...


The door needed to be modified - it needed a new hole routed out to fit the hinge in, the old one patched up etc. It wasn't as simple as screw and unscrew. As I said earlier, I assumed it would be that simple, as it's ridiculous that there's no standard for the distance between the hinges on these things. But it's easy to be an expert once you've done research.


That would need a cabinet maker/kitchen installer to do it, not someone who just installs the white goods.


5 out of 6 posters on here disagree with your argument. Just forget about it and learn from it for the future.


Finally, Definition of integrated appliances from John Lewis...


Built-in / integrated
These are fixed in, with the correct ventilation. An integrated appliance is fully or partially concealed behind a door panel and within a carcass; a built-in appliance can be seen, though it has unfinished sides and would topple over if left freestanding.