Debit card fraud help please-A happy ending!

traveller

Hi, on the 26th May my mother attempted to use her card at a Santander ATM. As soon as she put her pin in, neither the card or money reappeared. Apparently, a guy appeared from the side of her, telling her she shouldn't use it as the machine just swallowed his card and he went home to get another one! Well, she wrote the phone number on the machine down to ring regarding the swallowed card and went home.

She telephoned me about an hour later, to explain what had happened and I told her to ring Natwest for a new card and explain what had happened immediately, so a block can be put on the card as all of this is suspicious. I told her the number on the machine is not worth contacting as you need the card blocked now! As the hours stated with the phone number had passed, she would be waiting for the next day to call anyway, so no use, just ring Natwest.

She rang natwest and a week later, she received a new card. Last week, my mother receives her bank statement, to discover that spending, to the tune of over 1.5k had taken place in shops she has never ever visited before, between the 26th and 28th May :mad:

Natwests stance, is that they tried to contact her, when they realised the pattern of spending was unusual and couldn't get hold of her-she has a mobile and answering machine, no messages were ever left. But more to the point, this card was supposed to be blocked :mad: The fraud team promised to call her back regarding this, they never did and she has had to continuously chase them

The fraud team have now finished their 'investigation'. They have sent a letter stating, that my mother is liable for the whole amount, as the card was not cloned, but physically used, to make these transactions (I have not seen the letter yet, but will do today). From my point of view, it was never cloned, but retrieved more than likely by someone and they had managed to make note of her pin.

Would I be right in assuming that if we can prove any of these transactions took place after the card incident was reported to Natwest, we could fight this? I'm so annoyed, as my mother is elderly and works her socks off, but would never have noticed this, as she has no on-line banking ect and just waits for her statements.

While I appreciate it was the actual card, she did tell them the card had been swallowed by the machine, so we know it was probably the exact card used. Thanks.

pmduk

Are you sure that the call was made immediately? Some elderly people can be vague about days and when they made phone calls. Natwest are certainly responsible for any transactions made after the card was reported lost. Dates on statements are the dates debited to an account, the transaction date may be a few days earlier, ie before the card was reported lost

grumbler

I think you can fight all fraudulent transactions and definitely all after the incident was reported.

traveller

Hi and thanks for your replies I know when she made the call as she called me back as soon as she made it. I'm off to look at the statements now to look at the POS and posting dates on them.

Buzby

Be meticulous in noting the sequence of events.

From what you describe, it does sound that the card slot was compromised so never went into the machine. The 'helpful' guy was probably one of the team, viewing her entering her PIN. However the giveaway is the ATM doesn't ask for a PIN - did she enter it regardless?

Some sites have CCTV so this will help her sustain her case for a refund, but for the bank to let unusual spending continue because 'they could not contact' her is lame in the extreme. That just won't fly.

pmduk

An elderly friend had this happen to his natwest card. All of the spending occurred within 30 minutes of the card being "obtained".
Fortunately in that case natwest didn't quibble about refunding the transactions.

traveller

Hi, Natwest are refusing to issue a refund because of the following:

'When you spoke to my colleague on 16th July you confirmed that the card issued to you was left in an ATM after entering you PIN number. Whoever has taken these funds has taken advantage of this unfortunate circumstance.

When you signed up to your Natwest account, you agreed to certain terms and conditions that were put in place for your own protection. Those terms included never making your PIN accessible to others by noting it down and keeping your card secure, which unfortunately hasn't happened in this case.

Because of this, I am unable to take your claim any or refund you any money.'

Nowhere does it mention they had tried to contact her regarding unusual spending on her account, or that she called to block the card on the day the unusual spending which they noticed, took place! They also make it sound as if she forgot her card in the machine after entering her pin-it was retained. What else other than contact them could she do?

Well I will appeal on the basis, that although it appears all transactions took place on the day the card was taken, it was only the posting dates that spanned a few days, they admitted it was suspicious and they did nothing to safe guard her account. She did not leave her card out of choice-it was retained. I am not impressed by the way in which they've twisted it at all.

BMN

It sounds as though they haven't really understood the situation. To clarify with them exactly what has happened it might be better to write a clear and concise letter.

I would also address their comments about the terms and conditions, pointing out that your mother did follow the instructions in 15.2.1 about reporting the card as lost/stolen, didn't write down her PIN and as far as she was aware the ATM retained her card (as opposed to the card being left in the machine) so she didn't willingly allow somebody else to use her card.

The terms & conditions can be found here: http://personal.natwest.com/content/dam/natwest_com/currentaccounts/downloads/NatWest-Ts-and-Cs-Fees-Interest-Helping-You.pdf
And just for reference, this seems to be the relevant section they were referring to:

15.2.1 If your card is lost or stolen, or you suspect that someone knows your PIN, you must phone us on 0870 6000 459 (or +44 1268 500 813 from abroad). If you are unable to communicate in any other way, you must write immediately to your branch or to NatWest Card Loss Centre, Edinburgh Card Centre, PO Box 2000, The Younger Building, 3 Redheughs Avenue, Edinburgh EH12 9RB.

15.2.2 You (and any additional cardholder(s)) must:

(a) sign cards on receipt;
(b) keep all cards secure at all times and not allow any other person to use them;
(c) on receiving a PIN advice slip memorise the PIN and then immediately destroy the PIN advice slip; and
(d) never write down the PIN in any way which could be understood by someone else.
Failure to follow the above procedures may affect your liability for unauthorised payments

Vortigern

Lebanese Loop perhaps?

Wikipedia describes how this fraud is done.

antrobus

traveller wrote: »

....'When you spoke to my colleague on 16th July you confirmed that the card issued to you was left in an ATM after entering you PIN number. Whoever has taken these funds has taken advantage of this unfortunate circumstance......

I can understand that if someone walked away from an ATM after enetering their PIN number, that someone else happening by shortly afterwards would have been able to take "advantage of this unfortunate circumstance" and withdraw some cash. It would not, however, have given them knowledge of the PIN and enabled them to have subsequently carried out in transactions in a number of shops. That could only happen because the machine was compromised.

traveller wrote: »

....When you signed up to your Natwest account, you agreed to certain terms and conditions that were put in place for your own protection. Those terms included never making your PIN accessible to others by noting it down and keeping your card secure, which unfortunately hasn't happened in this case.....

I suppose you could remind Natwest that their terms and conditions only matter to the extent that they are consistent with the Payment Services Regulations 2009.

As long as you can demonstrate that your mother contacted Natwest without "undue delay" to inform them of what had happened, her liability is limited to £50 unless Natwest can demonstrate that she acted "fradulently" or with "gross negligence". Neither of which seems to be the case.

Have a read of the FOS ruling on complaint 67/02 here
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/67/67-cash-machines.html

traveller

Hi and thank you all, so much for your help on this :T Can I go to the Financial ombudsman now with the letter they sent, or do I have to appeal to Natwest and wait for the outcome of that decision first? Thanks.