Debt amount should be adjusted?

System

Like others, I am having problems understanding your various posts. It is just not possible to build up a debt on energy that has not been used: that is not how billing works. That said, I think that I can understand what you are trying to achieve.

I have never been with NPower but all the other companies that I have been with carry out an annual energy review. This takes into account any 'small' credit or debit balance from the previous year, adds/subtracts this to/from the projected expenditure (not debt) for the coming year and divides the total by 12. In your case a substantial debt from the previous year has built up (it is irrelevant who is to blame) and you and NPower have agreed that you will repay that debt at an agreed monthly amount over an agreed period of time. I cannot see any company agreeing to waive an agreed debt recovery plan. (sorry - too many agreeds (sic) but it is important to make the point that this was a 2-party decision). NPower has then calculated a monthly payment for future energy from an assumed zero carry forward which they have added to your monthly debt repayment.

Where you do have a case is re the amount that you pay each month for future energy. If you can show that the energy forecast is wrong (i.e., you are not using the projected amount of energy) then you have a case to ask NPower to reduce this element of your total monthly repayment. FWiW, I switched suppliers in April and I have an annual energy forecast of £852pa (paid at £71 per month), and as of the 14 July, I was £148 in credit. This is what I would expect from previous years and whilst my energy company suggests that I could reduce my DD by £2 a month, I shall resist the temptation.

As an aside, I think that I am correct in saying that no energy company will allow you switch suppliers with any outstanding debt on your account.

All that said, if you cannot strike an agreement with NPower you could ask for a 'deadlock letter' and refer the matter immediately to the Ombudsman.

An alternative Approach....

Having given your problem a bit more thought, I would probably do the following.

1. Provide my energy company with meter readings and ask them to provide a statement of account; i.e; a bill. This will provide you with an accurate statement relating to how much you owe them based on your energy consumption to this date.

2. You could then offer to pay this debt off in full - if you are able to do so. This would zero your account.

3. You then have two options: one, agree with NPower a monthly DD payment to cover the next 12 months of projected energy usage or you can switch to A N Other Energy Company and start from scratch.

chanz4

But provide an upto date reading this if over estimated will lower the debt, if not over then cant see where your complaint is. Inregards to payment amounts, the ombudsman has no power.

TickersPlaysPop

Hengus wrote: »

Like others, I am having problems understanding your various posts. It is just not possible to build up a debt on energy that has not been used: that is not how billing works.

Thank you Hengus for taking the time and effort to send such a long reply.

With the greatest respect you are incorrect in your statement above. I'll explain why.....

History of my NPower experience .....

2012 Sep - I moved into the house immediately after buying it and went onto standard tariff

2013 Apr - After a long cold winter and excessive use of gas by myself due to learning the new house, NPower set the direct debit amount of £160/mth. This was using 3 customer readings and 1 NPower read across that time period.

2013 May - We went onto a significantly cheaper and variable tariff and requested the bank account from which the direct debit come from to be changed.

2013 Dec - since May2013 the direct debit payments failed to reach NPower because of errors by their staff and their system. Also we used a lot less gas across this period, and also used less for the coming winter, due to more conservative heating programmed into central heating, the use of a newly installed wood burner in living room, and a very mild winter. NPower finally fixed the problems by Dec2013 and also took the 'debt', i.e. the total sum of failed DD's £607, and segregated it into a payment plan. The sum was less than 6 x 160 because we made some ad hoc payments over the phone.

Therefore, the £607 is a 'debt' for energy that I DID NOT USE.

I spent 3 hrs over the weekend calculating exactly how much energy I used since moving into the house using my many customer readings on my NPower web profile, and the tariff info I have. It was a huge excel spreadsheet and i can see that in the past energy companies unnecessarily over complicated the matter! My calcs show if I pay off the £607 debt in full, i would have over paid by £375.

Even with errors and difference in how to calculate things this gives me even more confidence that NPower are asking for more than i should give them, and also systemactically not set up to comprehend or deal with the situation I have been through with them.

System

TickersPlaysPop wrote: »

Therefore, the £607 is a 'debt' for energy that I DID NOT USE.

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The rest of your post is with respect irrelevant. Debt only accrues for energy that you have received from NPower - not future energy that you are projected to use. Energy companies are not out there making money through fraud. Get a statement based on meter readings taken by yourself and ask NPower to produce a statement. This will show what you have used and what tariffs you were on. Trying to reverse engineer energy bills is just a waste of time.

You may well be in credit against future usage over the coming Winter. That is how DD schemes are supposed to work. If you think that your future energy projection is wrong then pay off the debt, get your credit balance back and move to another supplier. I shall repeat myself once more, the only debt that you will have to pay is the money owed for gas and electricity used.

If the estimates that NPower used to calculate the underpayment in previous months is wrong then it will all balance out in the end. With interest rates so low you are not losing out.

Finally, pay 99p for the IMeters app and insert your tariffs and you can forget about spreadsheets. However, you do need to read your meters. I am with Ovo who produce a monthly statement on the 16th of the month. I e-mail them meter readings on the 15th so I know exactly what is going on. They also pay me 3% interest on any credit balance in my account.

System

Edit:

For the sake of completeness, I have looked again at all your posts. Nowhere do you say that you have had a bill from NPower and you agree with it. You seem more concerned that you have been asked to payback the monthly DD payments that you agreed to pay (i.e., 6 months at £160 per month or £607 after taking into account the odd payment made). This NOT debt: these are nothing more than payments made on account. They are credits to your account from which charges are taken for energy used. I haven't bothered to look at the ts and cs that NPower impose but my supplier requires me to pay DDs as agreed. If I default, they may move me onto a standard variable tariff.

I say again that the way of resolving this issue is to get an upto date bill based on actual meter readings. These will give you the actual charges from which NPower will deduct ALL the payments that you have made. This will normally trigger a revision of projected energy use moving forward with advice on the level of monthly payment that you should make to achieve a zero balance at the end of the present billing period. Trust me, no one is trying to diddle you out of any money.

TickersPlaysPop

Hi Hengus

Thank so very very much for taking the time to read all my posts and also post extensive explanation, you are very helpful.

I think I completely understand what you are saying.... Its simple... And how i have always understood energy companies to work..... We pay energy companies money, they keep records of this and and meter readings, and it all evens out in the end if you under or over pay..... Simples...

But, not in my specific case... the debt amount £607 set in dec2013 and the payments i have since made to reduce it have not been taken into consideration in my overall balance of usage vs money given to NPower.

NPower deal with 'debt' completely separately to routine bill payments.

NPower only review the Mthly DD amount I need to pay once a year. This can lead to prolonged periods of over or under paying, even if you send them a mthly meter reading.

I'll take your advice and ask NPower for an up to date bill, but as i have said, it will have a balance but it will not be a balance including the remaining debt and the payments in have made against the debt specifically.

Also i dont think it will have information going back to Sep2012.

NPower have publically admitted they have billing issues, and my problem has been many... Their failure to change the bank account details by staff and the system, then giving me a debt payment plan that isnt part of my overall balance.

System

My final post. Whether you have one or 2 piggie banks with NPower is irrelevant. Piggy Bank A has a debt of £607 which is reducing at £40 a month. You agreed to this repayment plan and now want to vary it. Piggy Bank B is the pot that the rest of your monthly payment goes into from which charges for gas and electricity used are withdrawn. Your argument is that the Piggy Bank A will have a credit balance at the end of your re-payment term as the DD amount per month that you should have paid is going to be too much for the energy consumed. The point that I think you are still missing is that it doesn't matter. NPower will take all payments made to them into account when assessing how much energy you have consumed - based on accurate meter readings that you should give them. You seem to think - mistakenly - that if you are over-paying into Piggy Bank A then NPower will just keep the difference. This would be fraud. If, in total, you have been overpaying NPower then ask them to re-calculate your usage and adjust your monthly payments to Piggy Bank B.

The moral here is simple. Remember what you have signed up to which includes regular monthly DD payments. It is too convenient to blame just the supplier as we all have access to our Bank accounts. All energy used is going to have to be paid for and, finally, provide your supplier with regular meter readings. Sorry to preach.

Nada666

I don't agree with you, Hengus. Although initially I don't think TickersPlays made clear the situation after a couple of iterations they do have a point. Their issue is not that ultimately all payments are credited to the account (where on earth did you get that idea from?) but that the original calculation did not use an actual read.

They have asked npower to recalculate - npower have refused.

(Not that I would bother myself - I would be happy to wait and end up having future instalments reduced by £65 or £90 next assessment rather than have it reduced by just a tenner immediately.)

undaunted

Surely all you need do here is (as I think you suggested you had done?)

Take an opening read (when you moved in) and a "closing read" (now) in order to calculate what you have used / owe in total.

If you think the DD are out of line with any debt & what you are likely to use in the coming months write & complain stating what you feel the realistic figure should be.

If they can't dispute that & wont amend it you could always stop the DDI (you may need to consider any impact on your tarriff of doing so)

TickersPlaysPop

I really do appreciate all the attention, many thanks to all.

However, you don't seem to understand what I have been writing and I really can't see why. If I can't get you to understand my point, how can I explain it to NPower?! I'm not going to try any more, but thank you all again.

My next step will be to ask NPower for information...

A list of my tariffs and dates when I was on them
A total sum of money I have given them since starting with NPower
A total sum of money they think they are due since I joined them

I have a feeling they will not be able to do this.