Civil Penalty advice- urgent

Helena249

Hello
I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on an issue going on with an elderly friend of mine.

She recently was issued with a civil penalty notice for £1900 approx from the debt management at DWP, they want to take £10.45 a week back off her pension, the months they say she was overpaid was 2011 -2014

They are being pretty evasive about what the problem has been only that she owes this money. I have looked through all her paperwork and it seems the DWP are after over payment for "carers allowance" that she had for her sister who had has down syndrome and she was her carer.

Now here's the bit I can't understand, this lady is now 74 and her carers allowance was stopped in 2000 when she got to 60.

So by the DWP's own rule of thumb she wouldn't have been entitled to it being in receipt of a state pension, also looking through all her bank statements there is no record of CA being paid into her account at all.- She is going to contact the bank and get records going back to 2011, but I can't find CA at all for the 2014 period they refer to.( she needs more records from the bank to cover 2011)

She is also claiming attendance allowance for herself as she is now disabled badly with Rheumatoid arthritus, so again, she wouldn't be able to claim CA for her sister ( if that's what the DWP are insinuating) as she is disabled herself.

Something else I have seen is that because the " DWP " say she has been in recent of CA, its had a knock on effect with her housing benefit and council tax and when they send you a break down for your council tax this CA component has popped up as an income , for £33.20? which again doesn't make any sense, even in 2011 CA wasn't £33.20 ! So her and her husband have been paying what I consider to be too much money towards the rent and council tax, they both only have state pensions and my friends AA.

Can any advise where to go with this, I have seen so many DWP errors this past year with other people I can't help but think that there's been a huge admin error and this lady is so worried its made her very poorly.

The CA over payment has been showing up on the council tax bill for years and every time she's told them I don't get it, this past few weeks its just been removed, and now she's been issued with a civil notice to pay a huge amount for a pensioner.

Any advice appreciated, I have told her to get all bank statements this money must have gone somewhere, but certainly not to this lady in question she wasn't entitled to it when she got to 60, and hasn't had it since 2000.- then this darn letter arrived last week asking for £1900! for 3 years over payment of CA

Any advice would be appreciated.

pmlindyloo

I believe it is not the Carer's Allowance that they are saying has been overpaid but the CA premium that is given for means tested benefits.

When she reached state pension age she could not have been paid both her state pension and CA as they are overlapping benefits. What she would have received was a Carer's premium - up to £33.20 a week.

DWP seem to be saying that she was not entitled to this during the specified period.

So when she stopped caring for her sister did she notify the DWP that she was no longer entitled to the Carer's premium because she was no longer caring for her sister?

Helena249

pmlindyloo wrote: »

I believe it is not the Carer's Allowance that they are saying has been overpaid but the CA premium that is given for means tested benefits.

When she reached state pension age she could not have been paid both her state pension and CA as they are overlapping benefits. What she would have received was a Carer's premium - up to £33.20 a week.

DWP seem to be saying that she was not entitled to this during the specified period.

So when she stopped caring for her sister did she notify the DWP that she was no longer entitled to the Carer's premium because she was no longer caring for her sister?

The DWP stopped her money in 2000 because they said she was no longer entitled to it, yes she has informed them numerous times she didn't take care of her sister and an agency now do it and deal with her sisters finances, she kept telling them she didn't get CA and informed the council it shouldn't be on the council tax bill.

pmlindyloo

I suggest you give these people a ring

https://www.gov.uk/carers-allowance-unit

and see what their 'take' is on it.

Basically if she reported the change of circumstances that she was no longer caring for her sister (has she evidence of this? person she spoke to? date? letter?) then the Carer's premium should have stopped.

It is not enough to say that she wasn't actually being paid Carer's Allowance because she was receiving her state pension. She needs to have told them that she was no longer caring for her sister to stop the Carer's premium.

If she did inform them that she was no longer caring for her sister in 2011 (I presume that is when she stopped) then she should have had no overpayment of the Carer's premium. The difficulty is proving it.

They do record all telephone calls so if she has a note of the date..........

She has one month to appeal the original decision but I suspect that she is out of time as it has now got to this stage of issuing a civil penalty.

In view of her age she may be able to put in a late appeal on the grounds of failing health/lack of understanding?) She would need some professional help. Try AgeUK or CAB (with a benefits specialist)

pmlindyloo

Just one other thing.

Have you checked to see if they may be eligible for Guarantee Pension Credit? (You say they only have their state pensions? Plus AA which isn't means tested.)

You could put their details in to the benefit calculator on https://www.turn2us.org.uk. to find out.

This can be backdated up to 3 months without question.

Helena249

Hi sorry forgot to add she stopped claiming CA and being her sisters carer in the year 2000 , so we can't understand why the 2011-2014 civil penalty has been fired off to her.
My thoughts is there has been a break down in comms from one department to another and this poor lady has been caught up in their mess, so many older people don't know what they are entitled too and what they aren't, the system is too confusing for them, thank you so much for taking time out to give me help.

AnxiousAnnie_3

Helena249 wrote: »

Hello
I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on an issue going on with an elderly friend of mine.

She recently was issued with a civil penalty notice for £1900 approx from the debt management at DWP, they want to take £10.45 a week back off her pension, the months they say she was overpaid was 2011 -2014

They are being pretty evasive about what the problem has been only that she owes this money. I have looked through all her paperwork and it seems the DWP are after over payment for "carers allowance" that she had for her sister who had has down syndrome and she was her carer.

Now here's the bit I can't understand, this lady is now 74 and her carers allowance was stopped in 2000 when she got to 60.

So by the DWP's own rule of thumb she wouldn't have been entitled to it being in receipt of a state pension, also looking through all her bank statements there is no record of CA being paid into her account at all.- She is going to contact the bank and get records going back to 2011, but I can't find CA at all for the 2014 period they refer to.( she needs more records from the bank to cover 2011)

Common misconception that she wouldn't have been entitled. She would have had an underlying entitlement. As pmlindyloo has said, this would have then entitled her to the carer's premium.

She is also claiming attendance allowance for herself as she is now disabled badly with Rheumatoid arthritus, so again, she wouldn't be able to claim CA for her sister ( if that's what the DWP are insinuating) as she is disabled herself.

Just because one person is disabled, doesn't mean they are unable to care for somebody else - quite common for this to happen actually - one disabled person caring for another and vice versa.

Something else I have seen is that because the " DWP " say she has been in recent of CA, its had a knock on effect with her housing benefit and council tax and when they send you a break down for your council tax this CA component has popped up as an income , for £33.20? which again doesn't make any sense, even in 2011 CA wasn't £33.20 ! So her and her husband have been paying what I consider to be too much money towards the rent and council tax, they both only have state pensions and my friends AA.

This is the Carer's Premium, I don't think it would have been on the council tax/housing benefit statement as income, but as a discount because she is/was a carer. It's probably not that she has paid too much in council tax/rent, but that she hasn't paid enough now because she wasn't actually a carer

Can any advise where to go with this, I have seen so many DWP errors this past year with other people I can't help but think that there's been a huge admin error and this lady is so worried its made her very poorly.

The CA over payment has been showing up on the council tax bill for years and every time she's told them I don't get it, this past few weeks its just been removed, and now she's been issued with a civil notice to pay a huge amount for a pensioner.

Any advice appreciated, I have told her to get all bank statements this money must have gone somewhere, but certainly not to this lady in question she wasn't entitled to it when she got to 60, and hasn't had it since 2000.- then this darn letter arrived last week asking for £1900! for 3 years over payment of CA

In all honesty, this happens quite regularly:

• Carer becomes pensioner
• Carer's Allowance entitlement becomes underlying entitlement
• Pensioner assumes they are no longer receiving Carer's Allownce as no physical payments being made
• Overpayment of the carer's premium as pensioner didn't realise they were even receiving it

Any advice would be appreciated.
If she is adamant that she informed the CAU that she was no longer caring for her sister, she will have to appeal the decision. She would need to try to provide dates/times that she informed them she was no longer a carer. They won't have a recording of the telephone conversation from 14 years ago either way, so won't be able to verify this either way, so may work in her favour.

Other than that, appeal to their better nature? Inform them that she didn't realise she was ever receiving it and didn't fully understand carer's premium/underlying entitlement etc. I don't know if this would have any affect on the decision though.

Hope she gets this sorted out,

Annie

anmarj

all the assumations at the moment have been that she may of got underlying entitlement, BUT if her basic state pension was less than the carers allowance, carers would of paid the difference between the basic and carers allowance, the £1900 over three years amounts to approx £12 per week, the carers alowance per week was £55.55 (55.55 x 52 x 3 = would be £8665).

To the OP do you know if there has been a change in her State Pension recently or not?

AnxiousAnnie_3

anmarj wrote: »

all the assumations at the moment have been that she may of got underlying entitlement, BUT if her basic state pension was less than the carers allowance, carers would of paid the difference between the basic and carers allowance, the £1900 over three years amounts to approx £12 per week, the carers alowance per week was £55.55 (55.55 x 52 x 3 = would be £8665).

To the OP do you know if there has been a change in her State Pension recently or not?

That's a good point. Ideally, we would need to know the amount of State Pension she has received since the alleged overpayment i.e. 2011-2014.

Also, if the assumption that it is Carer's Premium (due to underlying entitlement) is correct - who would be chasing this debt? DWP or local authority?

Either way though, there will have been an overpayment of the Carer's Premium via council tax, regardless of whether or not there is/is not an overpayment of Carer's Allowance.

AnxiousAnnie_3

anmarj wrote: »

all the assumations at the moment have been that she may of got underlying entitlement, BUT if her basic state pension was less than the carers allowance, carers would of paid the difference between the basic and carers allowance, the £1900 over three years amounts to approx £12 per week, the carers alowance per week was £55.55 (55.55 x 52 x 3 = would be £8665).

To the OP do you know if there has been a change in her State Pension recently or not?

Sorry to post twice.

As I have understood it, a carer isn't included in council tax calculations. This would mean that the lady and her husband in question would have received a 25% discount on their council tax bill (assuming they were the only people living in the house) - could this not coincide with the circa £12 per week?

anmarj

AnxiousAnnie wrote: »

Also, if the assumption that it is Carer's Premium (due to underlying entitlement) is correct - who would be chasing this debt? DWP or local authority?

Premium in the housing award would have to be chased by LA, but they may of been told or checked on the common enquiry screen (you hope!) that Carers was in payment, so would of based their award on that.

Civil penalty would only apply to overpayment that wholy started off after October 2012, which is £50. I think the OP's friend has misread that bit (the letter would still contain all the details but would have nothing against the CP part of it)

OP has stated the letter has talked about Carers Allowance, which makes me think that she was getting a reduced rate due to the basic element of the State Pension being under the amout of Carers Allowance ie for example basic pension £40 carers allowane £15 (using 2011 rates), if the friends husband turned 65 after 2011 and the wife should of then had an increase in the basic which would then taken her off Carers and give her the underlying entitlement, which has only just been picked up, that could explain why it is now only coming to light - she would of then had arrears from State Pension.

OP do you know if your friend got any more letters from Carers Allowance Unit every year from 2000 without even realising it?