Fire Risk Assessment for common parts - anyone done one?

littlesnuggy

I have owned my ground floor flat in a converted townhouse for 4 years. The two upstairs flats were owned by the same lady for this period, and she & her husband were the sole directors of the management company. They have now sold the flats and have asked if I can take over the management company.

I have looked through all the documentation and am fine with doing this, however the one thing I'm concerned hasn't been done is a fire risk assessment on the common parts.

We have one staircase and front door, currently there are no fire extinguishers in the hallway or any smoke detectors.

Is there a simple template I can use for doing a risk assessment myself? Should we pay someone to do one (and split the cost between the three flats)? Should we have fire extinguishers & smoke detectors in the communal hallway?

I've read various guides online but they are all very in depth and I'm not sure if it's necessary or not.

Thanks!

chocluver

The gov uk site has some good info. Google fire risk assessment - gov uk and the site should be listed

MysteryMe

For the small price they cost a I'd bung up a smoke detector.

starspark

I am a Fire Risk assessor for a housing association and I would certainly advise you to get a professional to carry this out. There are probably many many issues that you have probably not considered.
By commissioning an FRA you are putting the emphasis on the risk assessor and he will be able to tell you exactly what it is you require.
The Regulatory reform fire safety order (RRFSO) is the main guidance in this case.
Typically for communal areas you will require smoke detection (sometimes linked into flats), Emergency lighting to escape routes, Self closing Fire Doors either on your flat door or within the communal area for compartmentation and Signage throughout the communal area amongst many many things.
Hope this helps and doesnt frighten you to much!!

Snakey

Get the experts in and install whatever they say needs doing and split the cost between the flats (maybe not equally, if you have your own front door to the street and can't access the communal areas). Imagine if you went for the cheap/easy option and then there was a fire and people died because they couldn't get out.

My friend lives in a townhouse converted to flats and they recently had all theirs done. They installed mains-wired detectors/alarms in all the flats and in the communal areas too. They didn't change everyone's front doors, perhaps they were already compliant (no idea). Can't remember about fire extinguishers.

If it's BTL then the landlord is responsible for making sure each flat has things like that inside.

booksurr

Snakey wrote: »

If it's BTL then the landlord is responsible for making sure each flat has things like that inside.

no the LL is not

the LL is legally responsible for the communal areas only, there is no requirement to install smoke detectors or anything else inside the flats since they count as self contained dwellings and therefore are not an HMO which is where there is a legal liability to undertake safety installations, although obviously it would be good practice to do so and would assist the LL in proving he had met the legal "duty of care" which of itself does not set out specific requirements unless it is an HMO

littlesnuggy

starspark wrote: »

I am a Fire Risk assessor for a housing association and I would certainly advise you to get a professional to carry this out. There are probably many many issues that you have probably not considered.
By commissioning an FRA you are putting the emphasis on the risk assessor and he will be able to tell you exactly what it is you require.
The Regulatory reform fire safety order (RRFSO) is the main guidance in this case.
Typically for communal areas you will require smoke detection (sometimes linked into flats), Emergency lighting to escape routes, Self closing Fire Doors either on your flat door or within the communal area for compartmentation and Signage throughout the communal area amongst many many things.
Hope this helps and doesnt frighten you to much!!

This is really helpful, thanks - although it sounds like it could be very expensive to do all that! How much do you charge for a FRA on a property like this? If we're going to pay out for a prfoessional FRA I think there's only any point in doing that if we follow through with their recommendations; are we going to be opening a can of worms for massive costs?

I'm very conscious of the safety element and in no way would I want a lack of action to be responsible for injury to tenants or unnecessary damage to properties.

There are three flats, all accessed through the main communal front door; mine is off the ground floor corridor, stairs up to middle landing with Flat 2 front door then stairs up to Flat 3. That is the sum total of the common areas. My front door definitely isn't a fire door (although the internal doors seem to be) but I have a feeling the two upstairs might be.

Is a smoke detector (or several) sufficient, or would it need an all singing system with a panel on the wall? Is emergency lighting always required? And Fire Exit signs? It's a Listed Building with a lovely staircase and I don't really want to start plastering signs & strip lights all over it unless we have to!

Snakey

booksurr wrote: »

no the LL is not

the LL is legally responsible for the communal areas only

Are we talking about the same thing? I meant if someone has bought one of the flats and rented it out, they are the landlord of that flat. They wouldn't have any responsibility for the communal areas that they didn't also have for the flat itself, would they?

I dunno, I'm basing it on what my landlord told me when I was renting - I had a wired-in smoke alarm and a fire extinguisher and a fire blanket - and also when I moved into this flat that I've just bought, there was a letter from the Environmental Health Officer to the old owner (who rented the flat out) telling her that she had to install specific smoke and heat detectors before she let the property out again. A few weeks after I moved in he came knocking on my door because he thought I was a new tenant and wanted to check that it had been done!

starspark

littlesnuggy wrote: »

This is really helpful, thanks - although it sounds like it could be very expensive to do all that! How much do you charge for a FRA on a property like this? If we're going to pay out for a prfoessional FRA I think there's only any point in doing that if we follow through with their recommendations; are we going to be opening a can of worms for massive costs?

I'm very conscious of the safety element and in no way would I want a lack of action to be responsible for injury to tenants or unnecessary damage to properties.

There are three flats, all accessed through the main communal front door; mine is off the ground floor corridor, stairs up to middle landing with Flat 2 front door then stairs up to Flat 3. That is the sum total of the common areas. My front door definitely isn't a fire door (although the internal doors seem to be) but I have a feeling the two upstairs might be.

Is a smoke detector (or several) sufficient, or would it need an all singing system with a panel on the wall? Is emergency lighting always required? And Fire Exit signs? It's a Listed Building with a lovely staircase and I don't really want to start plastering signs & strip lights all over it unless we have to!

The FRA cost will probably be anywhere between £150-£300.
The costs will be entirely dependent on what is found.
By the sounds of your premises I would personally recommend (although not necessarily required) a LD3 possibly LD2 type of fire alarm system which would be a smoke alarm on each floor interlinked with one in each flat. Six in total. A panel would not be required normal domestic Aico mains powered smoke alarms would suffice. Cost fitted Approx £500-£1000.

Emergency lighting in my opinion would be required in the common areas/escape route. Approx £250-£750.

Signage again I would personally insist on. Fire exit directional signage,No smoking signs, General evacuation signs and Fire exit signs above final exit doors. Approx £50.

Fire door to minimum FD30s for flats each will be about £500-£1000.

Of course this is the basics the Assessor may and probably will find other things. Any worth their salt will ask for gas certs, elec certs and any records regardng the fabrics of the buildings etc before even carrying out the FRA. They will find as much as possible to cover there own backs. This may not necessarily mean it is required though.

Pay for an FRA then post the findings when you have the results and we could advise further from there?

propertyman

i have to disagree with starspark as the advice will turn the common areas into a health and safety showroom. It is possible to carry out your own fra and hse provides a template. That said the first question is am i competant? If you cannot say that you understand construction or the legislative requirements, then the answer is no.

two factors omitted in the above posts is that the building and its arrangement and constrction need to considered. At one extreme it might have to be treated as an hmo or if the means of escape are obvious and there us ample borrowed light no lights or signage are required.you also have to distinguish between recommended and required, and in the latter the risks. Ha,s are rekwon for being ott. Have a look at my sticky on landlordzone health and safety.

you also need a risk assessment for the hallway as a workplace and public area.

HBPencil

Realistically, if you find a good FRA you can work with them within your means.

Yes, ideally an all singing all dancing alarm system would be brilliant - but if that is not feasible then work with the FRA to find something legally compliant that works for you.

The only thing i whole heartedly agree on is paying to get a good FRA in, i have all our office FRA's carried out and have paid £800 at most and £150 at the cheapest. It is ok to shop around.

Good luck