Returning an item

Sheldon_Cooper

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Small claims court would be more time wasted, more hassle and you should follow ebay rules (return for a refund) before taking it further.

The problem is that ebay rules actually deny you your legal rights to have a seller who does not supply what you paid for reimburse the full cost of return postage.

Unfortunately people put up with this. If they insisted on their rights companies would not be able to get away with such high handed practices.

Sheldon_Cooper

ballisticbrian wrote: »

No-ones going to refund you before you send the item back - that's not how it works.

Irrelevant.

If I take them to court it shows that I was prepared to be flexible and offer them multiple options.

I have documentary evidence of their lying to me so it is perfectly reasonable that I expect them to do no more than I did when I paid before THEY sent the goods.

Flyonthewall

Sheldon_Cooper wrote: »

The problem is that ebay rules actually deny you your legal rights to have a seller who does not supply what you paid for reimburse the full cost of return postage.

Unfortunately people put up with this. If they insisted on their rights companies would not be able to get away with such high handed practices.

Ebay do not deny you your legal rights, they simply have no way to enforce them all. Ebay are the middle man, a selling platform. Nothing more. They don't sell the items themselves.

They have rules in place and they do ban bad sellers and buyers, but they are limited as to what they can do.

Sheldon_Cooper wrote: »

Irrelevant.

If I take them to court it shows that I was prepared to be flexible and offer them multiple options.

I have documentary evidence of their lying to me so it is perfectly reasonable that I expect them to do no more than I did when I paid before THEY sent the goods.

Although legal rights over-rule ebay, ebay have a procedure in place for dealing with such events. Demanding other options and not following their rules isn't being flexible.

The company have evidence of ebay rules, freepost labels and I would assume a message telling you to return the item for a refund. What more can they do? They've followed the rules and the law whether you like it or not.

You have no rights to keep the item and the money and to ensure that doesn't happen you have to return the item to then get a refund (which even with a dodgy company would be backed up by ebay so that makes it the fairer option for both parties).

Sheldon_Cooper

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Ebay do not deny you your legal rights, they simply have no way to enforce them all.

Ebay do not specifically deny your rights, it's just that if you go by their rules you do not get them.

Although legal rights over-rule ebay, ebay have a procedure in place for dealing with such events. Demanding other options and not following their rules isn't being flexible.

Nonsense!

If you have a legal right and someone offers you a remedy that does not fully honour your legal right then you are perfectly entitled to suggest or use some other method.

Unless ebay's rules are such that they give you equivalent or greater protection than your statuary rights you are under no obligation to follow them. That is pretty fundamental to consumer protection legislation.

The company have evidence of ebay rules, freepost labels and I would assume a message telling you to return the item for a refund. What more can they do? They've followed the rules and the law whether you like it or not.

Again: nonsense!

The law is that the buyer is responsible for paying the entire cost of the return postage. Ebay's rules taken together with what the buyer has offered deny the right as specified in law.

You have no rights to keep the item and the money and to ensure that doesn't happen you have to return the item to then get a refund (which even with a dodgy company would be backed up by ebay so that makes it the fairer option for both parties).

I never suggested that I had a right. I am OFFERING them an alternative.

Flyonthewall

Ok, let's look at it this way.

The law:
Offer refund/replacement when there's a problem like this
Seller pays postage costs for return of item

The seller:
Offered full refund (original costs)
Has paid for the full cost of the postage for return (freepost label)
Has gone by ebay rules of offering a refund upon return.

Ebay:
Has system in place to be as fair as possible to both sellers and buyers for returns/refunds (i.e. make sure each party has either the money or the item, but not both).
Requires items to be sent tracked as proof of delivery to stop scammers.
Cannot enforce the law on postage.

You may not trust the seller but they have responded to you, offered a refund and given a freepost label, which is far more than you'd get from a dodgy seller. They maybe made a mistake, perhaps don't have the best customer service or whatever, but they could be much much worse.

Anyhow, the seller is covering full postage costs and you have no idea whether or not they would refund if you sent freepost only. They've followed the law and ebay rules though.

So it is ebay that you have the problem with really. They are the ones who require you to pay for tracked, meaning you are paying out for a return. The seller has no control over the ebay system. You have a way to return the item completely free thanks to the seller. The law doesn't add that they must pay out more if site rules require extra postage costs.

You, however, do agree to all ebay rules/terms and conditions upon registering on the site which include the fact that when sending an item back for a return it should be tracked.

Flyonthewall

Flyonthewall wrote: »

You have no rights to keep the item and the money and to ensure that doesn't happen you have to return the item to then get a refund (which even with a dodgy company would be backed up by ebay so that makes it the fairer option for both parties).

Sheldon_Cooper wrote: »

I never suggested that I had a right. I am OFFERING them an alternative.

Yes, but the seller and ebay have no idea if you'll return the item once you have a refund. They can't force you to do so. Ebay can, however, force a refund. Which therefore makes that the fairer option than your alternative of refund then return.

It's not entirely fair (due to tracking cost) but at least ebay can be sure that neither party end up with everything.

You may have offered an alternative, but technically it is still a demand (or a threat really) as you are stating do A or B or I'll take you to court, even if not worded quite like that.

Sheldon_Cooper

Flyonthewal wrote:

You may have offered an alternative, but technically it is still a demand (or a threat really) as you are stating do A or B or I'll take you to court, even if not worded quite like that.

You do realise that it is perfectly legal and acceptable to tell someone that you will take them to court if they do not fulfill their legal obligations? (Although I had not actually mentioned court.)

Flyonthewall wrote: »

Ok, let's look at it this way.

The law:
Offer refund/replacement when there's a problem like this
Seller pays postage costs for return of item

The seller:
Offered full refund (original costs)
Has paid for the full cost of the postage for return (freepost label)
Has gone by ebay rules of offering a refund upon return.

Ebay:
Has system in place to be as fair as possible to both sellers and buyers for returns/refunds (i.e. make sure each party has either the money or the item, but not both).
Requires items to be sent tracked as proof of delivery to stop scammers.
Cannot enforce the law on postage.

You may not trust the seller but they have responded to you, offered a refund and given a freepost label, which is far more than you'd get from a dodgy seller. They maybe made a mistake, perhaps don't have the best customer service or whatever, but they could be much much worse.

Anyhow, the seller is covering full postage costs and you have no idea whether or not they would refund if you sent freepost only. They've followed the law and ebay rules though.

So it is ebay that you have the problem with really. They are the ones who require you to pay for tracked, meaning you are paying out for a return. The seller has no control over the ebay system. You have a way to return the item completely free thanks to the seller. The law doesn't add that they must pay out more if site rules require extra postage costs.

You, however, do agree to all ebay rules/terms and conditions upon registering on the site which include the fact that when sending an item back for a return it should be tracked.

LOL.

You cannot finesse your way around the law.

If the case went to court the questions would be:

Q: What is the law on returning incorrect items?
A: The seller pays the full return cost so that the buyer is not in any way out of pocket on account of the seller's breach of contract.

Q: If there is some dispute resolution procedure, does it result in the buyer benefiting from his or her full legal rights?
A: (In the case of ebay) No. The buyer has to pay more for the return than s/he will be reimbursed for and is thus left materially out of pocket as a result of the seller's breach of contract.

Q: Given that the buyer cannot benefit from his or her full legal rights using ebay's resolution procedure, is it reasonable that s/he should use some alternative method to ensure that s/he DOES benefit from his or her full legal rights.
A: Obviously. There would be no point in having legislation if companies could invalidate it by making up their own rules and procedures.

Anyway, it's all academic now as they have agreed to refund the difference between the cost of the item ordered and the one supplied.

A far better outcome for them as, otherwise, even following ebay's rules they would have had to pay for two sets of postage for a transaction on which they made no profit.

Flyonthewall

Being out of pocket is nothing to do with the seller breaking any laws though. It is ebay causing the costs, not the seller. The seller offered a freepost label covering costs for a return. The seller cannot be held responsible for additional costs caused by the selling platform which they do not own or control. The problem is with ebay, not the seller. And again, it's all terms and conditions you agreed to when signing up. If you don't like it/agree you shouldn't buy off ebay.

Anyway, glad you got it sorted.

And as far as the outcome for them, they will still pay Paypal/ebay fees on that item so depending on the item cost and postage costs they may be no better off really. They agree to the ebay terms for selling though and as a business seller they should be prepared for any situations like this.