England 'could leave the union', warns Carwyn Jones

IveSeenTheLight

Interesting concept that the Welsh First Minister is saying that without Scotland's support for the RoUK, England could then in the future look to walk away from a Union with Wales and Northern Ireland.

What's the consensus in here, would anyone like to walk away from Wales and Northern Ireland or does the mantra that we are "better together" hold true for those countries?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-27920179

First Minister Carwyn Jones has warned that the 'great danger' of Scottish independence would be England deciding to leave Wales and Northern Ireland.

He said England could vote to get out of a union with the 'expensive' Welsh and Irish after a Scottish Yes vote.

Mr Jones also repeated his call for a convention to discuss the future of the UK, however Scotland votes.

Plaid Cymru said the first minister had shown a "lack of vision", despite great opportunity for constitutional reform.

Mr Jones was speaking at an Institute of Welsh Affairs (IWA) dinner, in Cardiff, on Wednesday night.

Considering 15 years of devolution, the first minister observed that Wales had become a more 'confident nation' since 1999, and that was demonstrated by the attitude of Welsh youngsters.

He also reiterated his call for a 'reserved powers' model of devolution, where powers are assumed to be devolved unless specifically reserved.

Describing it as an important but 'obscure concept', Mr Jones said that while Welsh and Scottish powers should be different, the devolution structure should not.

Carwyn Jones says England could vote to go its own way within two years of a Scottish Yes vote
On the idea of English independence, he warned: "The great danger to my mind, if Scotland votes to leave, is that what's left becomes unstable.

"Not because of Wales' position, because I don't think - and we know from opinion polls - this will lead to a surge in support for independence in Wales.

"But it also means that I can see a scenario where in two or three years time there are calls in England to get out of the union with these expensive Celts in the west and over the Irish Sea.

"If Scotland can leave the UK, so can England.

"That leaves us and Northern Ireland.

"Now that is an implausible scenario I grant you now, but if Scotland leaves I can see that momentum growing.

"'Why are we paying for these people in Wales and Northern Ireland, let's just cast them to one side, the Scots have gone anyway?'

"I can see that happening and it's not in our interests."

'Spectator nation'
A Plaid Cymru spokeswoman said: "It is a sad indictment that the nation's first minister greets the unprecedented opportunity for constitutional reform in these islands with a lack of vision for his own country.

"Rather than provide a vision that empowers the people of Wales to realise their national aspirations, the first minister is content to see Wales as a spectator nation - waiting and watching as other parts of the UK assert their ambitions."

chucknorris

Economically I can't see how we would not be far better off on our own, but it would be awfully selfish to just ditch the other countries and leave them to suffer on their own. I don't think its so much a case of would England be better together, I think we would be far better off on our own, but we have a responsibility to the other countries.

BobQ

Who knows what might happen if the Scots vote yes.

michaels

Perhaps the NW and NE would like to join Scotland as well...little bit of Friday morning wishful thinking.....

princeofpounds

Dumping Northern Ireland is much more likely than Wales. There have been governments that have seriously considered it in the recent past but decided not to do it because the majority of the population still self-determines as British.

For Wales, we have had essentially the same legal system and defacto (if not de jure) union for almost a thousand years now. Reflect on that for a moment... that is a really long time. Half a Jesus. One sixth of all recorded human history.

Wales may be something of an economic burden to England, but it's really very modest considering it is so small (3 vs 50 million). So it's no worse than a couple of our poorer cities really. Or even the poorer people in London.

System

BobQ wrote: »

Who knows what might happen if the Scots vote yes.

And we probably never will.

Generali

I think it's unlikely. Northern Ireland is a can of worms nobody in their right mind wants to open and Wales no more has a separate identity than Yorkshire away from the sporting field.

lostinrates

I don't agree Wales has no separate identity. But if we had a referendum, even if it saw us financially better off, I would vote 'no' for breaking the union.

System

He can't be serious. If England left the Union that would leave Wales and NI with sole responsibility for representing the UK internationally.
Is he happy to take on our UN responsibilities, support for NATO, maintain nuclear deterence, worldwide deployment of RN ships, patrols round Falkland islands, support for US in Gulf, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc etc.
It's a lot of responsibility and cost for a tiny nation.

And course it's England's oil, but we're not having any of the national debt.

N1AK

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

What's the consensus in here, would anyone like to walk away from Wales and Northern Ireland or does the mantra that we are "better together" hold true for those countries?

Given that the SNPs incessant banging on about Scotland being wealthier than Britain is entirely because of Wales & Northern Ireland it's clear that selfishness can influence these kinds of arguments

I'm a big believer in devolving power in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland but also within British regions. It isn't healthy for a nation to have the wealthiest region begrudge the poorer ones for taking their money and the poorer ones begrudge the wealthier ones for having undue influence.

Clearly there is a fundamental flaw in English politics which needs addressing: It isn't right that politicians can vote on policy that doesn't affect their own constituents. That could be resolved without ending the union.

ruggedtoast

The SNP's argument for independence is based on a particularly enervating argument encapsulating miserly selfishness, as far as I can see. I am surprised they dont just say they dont want to be governed from England but they seem to be too scared to admit it will cost Scotland jobs, so are absurdly predicting the opposite.

As it is in England's nature to colonise and oppress people I cant see us abandoning Wales and NI voluntarily, unless it is to stage a particularly dastardly invasion and era of oppression the next day.