England 'could leave the union', warns Carwyn Jones

antrobus

N1AK wrote: »

....I'm a big believer in devolving power in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland but also within British regions. It isn't healthy for a nation to have the wealthiest region begrudge the poorer ones for taking their money and the poorer ones begrudge the wealthier ones for having undue influence....

The trouble is that the English themselves do not appear to share your enthusiasm for regional devolution. The North-East could have made their own assembly, but rejected it by a margin of something like 4 to 1.

N1AK wrote: »

..Clearly there is a fundamental flaw in English politics which needs addressing: It isn't right that politicians can vote on policy that doesn't affect their own constituents. That could be resolved without ending the union.

The flaw resides in British politics. It is the West Lothian question.

IveSeenTheLight

N1AK wrote: »

Given that the SNPs

ruggedtoast wrote: »

The SNP's argument

This thread is not about the SNP.
I believe the general consensus is to keep threads related

The Only reference to Scotland was ""The great danger to my mind, if Scotland votes to leave, is that what's left becomes unstable."

Which is interesting that he believes that without Scotland, the RoUK would be unbalanced.

Anyway, back on topic, I recognise Wales as an independent country, but also see that the English / Welsh Union has been around a lot longer and are more closely tied in terms of law etc.

I do not see a desire for Wales to be independent from Welsh people, but the question really is, would England vote to break up the union if they were given a referendum?

princeofpounds

The trouble is that the English themselves do not appear to share your enthusiasm for regional devolution. The North-East could have made their own assembly, but rejected it by a margin of something like 4 to 1.

I can quite understand why they rejected it. It would have been just another layer of town council-like bureaucracy, without any real powers, and it was to represent a region which was utterly arbitrary; as silly as holding a referendum for independence for Scotland north of Inverness but not south.

Rolandtheroadie

I don't think it would be a case of England walking away, more likely to be London and the SE walking away from Wales, NI and rEng.

Thrugelmir

My first thoughts are who is Carwyn Jones. I struggle to know the Shadow Cabinet these days. Let alone the unelected EU President.

Ultimately public opinion is what matters.

antrobus

Thrugelmir wrote: »

My first thoughts are who is Carwyn Jones. I struggle to know the Shadow Cabinet these days. Let alone the unelected EU President.

Ultimately public opinion is what matters.

Of course the question is rhetorical. But Carwyn Jones is the Welsh AM for Bridgend and the First Minister of Wales. You might say that he was the most senior Labour Party politician around these days, on the grounds that he runs Wales, and I can't think of any other bigger political unit that is run by Labour.

He is also an utter twonk. But that's just my personal opinion, you understand.

N1AK

antrobus wrote: »

The trouble is that the English themselves do not appear to share your enthusiasm for regional devolution. The North-East could have made their own assembly, but rejected it by a margin of something like 4 to 1.

That is alas true. It certainly doesn't mean that if Scotland gets what is perceived to be a good deal out of becoming independent/more independent then other regions might not look at it more favourably.

It's a bit like the muppets who voted against AV because of Nick Clegg and yet complain about how hard it is for small parties (UKIP) to get any seats.

antrobus wrote: »

The flaw resides in British politics. It is the West Lothian question.

British politics when it relates to just England is also English politics

antrobus

N1AK wrote: »

That is alas true. It certainly doesn't mean that if Scotland gets what is perceived to be a good deal out of becoming independent/more independent then other regions might not look at it more favourably.....

I imagine it's conceivable that the North-East might come to realise that they could lay claim to whatever share of North Sea reserves that the UK ends up with, and start wondering whether the numbers begin to add up. And if they really wanted to push the boat out, they could always revive Northumbria and insist that the Scots hand back Edinburgh and Aberdeen pronto.

N1AK wrote: »

...It's a bit like the muppets who voted against AV because of Nick Clegg and yet complain about how hard it is for small parties (UKIP) to get any seats.....

Oddly enough, UKIP is the only party that wanted AV.

N1AK wrote: »

....British politics when it relates to just England is also English politics

Well, I suppose one could point out that there is no such thing as 'English politics' because there is no English political entity. But then I'd guess you'd then say that you wanted one.

Moby

Generali wrote: »

I think it's unlikely. Northern Ireland is a can of worms nobody in their right mind wants to open and Wales no more has a separate identity than Yorkshire away from the sporting field.

Speaking as a Welsh peson this is wrong of course. Language, history....need I go on!

Generali

Moby wrote: »

Speaking as a Welsh peson this is wrong of course. Language, history....need I go on!

Wales was subsumed into England. There isn't really any Welsh history since the Black Prince.

There's an archaic language which mostly exists because of S4C which is paid for by taxes from London. There are sporting teams, notably the rugby team.

Nobody only speaks Welsh. There is no separate legal, fiscal or educational system as we see in Scotland.

Wales exists only as Surrey or Yorkshire does. The Welsh Parliament is a fig leaf.