DMP & Mutual Support Thread - Part 10

fermi

Not relevant to everyone, but this shows how it can helpful to check your old credit agreements if push comes to shove with a creditor.

---> Borrower wins court reprieve over £13,000 debt due to 'illegible documents'

When Harry Moore was taken to court over spiralling credit card debts, he faced losing both his home and business. Mr Moore, 43, had built up a balance of more than £13,000 on an MBNA credit card, and had failed to meet repayments.

His debts were passed from MBNA to a debt recovery agency, Hillesden Securities, which in November 2013 took him to court.

But the case was thrown out – because the orginal agreement was "impossible to read".

The agreement with Mr Moore had been photocopied so many times that ink was smudged and words merged together. Paul Tilley, representing Mr Moore, said in parts of the document the word "financial" read as "mandel".

He said: “The text was so close, with almost no spacing between sentences. We could barely read it out in court,” he said. “More importantly, it’s not about what the lawyer can read but what the consumer can read so they understand their obligations.”

Neither the card company nor Mr Moore had an original copy of the agreement, dating back to when the card was first taken out. And so, as is common in such cases, MBNA provided a "reconstituted" version of the document to Hillesden, based on copies.

“We have provided this information on many other occasions, to the same standard, without issue,” an MBNA spokesman said.

During the trial in Oxford County Court the judge, Charles Harris, had ordered Hillesden Securities to produce documentation that was more easily legible. It failed to do so. The problem was illustrated when Judge Harris read out Mr Moore’s address incorrectly.

Mr Moore, a financial adviser from Wootton, Bedfordshire, said tthe recession led to his business losing tens of thousands of pounds each year, forcing him to lay off staff. “I went from being the most creditworthy person I’ve ever known to being in the worst situation imaginable,” he said.

“I had a fair few creditors, but most of them understood that my business was in trouble and have generally been great,” he said.

Since he had zero income, the debt agency had in 2009 agreed to allow Mr Moore to repay £1 a month. But in 2013 it launched legal proceedings demanding that he pay back the £13,233.57 plus £290 costs.

Mr Moore said that he felt "consumed by darkness" when the court case began in October 2013. “I was dealing with my father’s death at the time, but it didn’t matter to the debt agency at all. They insisted on a full repayment even though it just wasn’t possible.”

Steve Grimmer, from Hillesden Securities refused to confirm whether Mr Moore, or any of its other customers, had received "illegible" documentation as part of the debt recovery process. He said the debt agency is a member of the Credit Services Agency trade body. “We are governed by this association’s membership rules, so of course we comply by them.

How common are hard-to-read documents?

Mr Moore said that he found from a quick search online that he was not alone. “There are a lot of people being pressured into making unrealistic repayments and not being given the correct information,” he said.
Online research led him to Mr Tilley, who specialises in consumer protection law. He explained that illegible documentation was a problem across the credit industry. “The original credit agreement came from MBNA and was wholly unreadable, evidenced by the repeated, albeit failed, attempts to rewrite it.

"How difficult can it be in the twenty-first century for documents to written clearly for consumers, as opposed to the illegible text presented to the court?” he said.

Debt charity StepChange said that hard-to-read documents were another example of underhand tactics by creditors. A spokesman said: "Crucial words and phrases are on occasion made deliberately difficult to read.

"We have seen examples of people who do have their agreements, ask for copies from their creditors and then see numerous discrepancies, sometimes adding significant levels of interest."

Borrowers: How do I know what my rights are?

Consumers should not be puzzled by illegible documents – whether it is because the type is impossible to read, or because it is full of legal jargon.

Lenders are obliged to provide you a true copy of their agreement that is easy to read.

Mr Moore’s case was thrown out because the debt agency failed to provide legible documents. He should have been sent a readable copy of the agreement, as required by section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act (1974). The debt still stands.

This must contain all the terms and conditions from your original agreement, information about any changes made to the agreement, your name and address at the time that you took out the agreement, and the rate of interest.

Rachel Springall, a lending expert from moneyfacts.co.uk, said: “You don’t have to sift through all of the jargon. You can ring your creditor any time if you have and queries, and they are legally required to speak to you to make sure that you understand any agreement you have."

igaveupnowimback

SC rec'd all a/c no's etc and emailed agreement for me to sign and return.Thought I'd 'made THE decision', now it looks scary again.

Also, re TSB overdraft, there is a charge plus interest each month. Do I pay into that every month to cover this or just let it build up and try to get it frozen etc as with other debts? Seems silly question, but am confused about contacting creditors already.

Phone calls to landline and mobile have started, am ignoring but want to start dealing with it. Was going to send £1 token payments but can't even manage that till next week. Thanks

Time_to_face_the_music

igaveupnowimback wrote: »

SC rec'd all a/c no's etc and emailed agreement for me to sign and return.Thought I'd 'made THE decision', now it looks scary again.

Also, re TSB overdraft, there is a charge plus interest each month. Do I pay into that every month to cover this or just let it build up and try to get it frozen etc as with other debts? Seems silly question, but am confused about contacting creditors already.

Phone calls to landline and mobile have started, am ignoring but want to start dealing with it. Was going to send £1 token payments but can't even manage that till next week. Thanks

Yes it does look scary the first time you see it all written down, I thought our debt was around £60,000 when I saw £82,344 in black and white, I sat and cried. First you need to look at it and think I am doing something about this and be proud that you are. Next you should prepare yourself that your debt may increase slightly in the first few weeks, most people experience this but it soon settles and starts to go down.

Re TSB overdraft, is this your old current account and is it going into the DMP? have you got your new safe account set up? Don't do anything about your old account until this is fully in place, everything transferred over etc. Once this is done, find out what is the charge for? Is it a premium account? If so, cancel that service and ask to be changed to a basic service. They will try and talk you out of this so you may need to insist. You can also look into whether any premium account with charges was missold to you.

Regarding phone calls, it is really your decision whether to answer them or not. I printed out my reference number and answered calls, telling them I was setting up a DMP, my reference number is XXXXXXX and please speak to SC (then CCCS) who are authorised to act on my behalf. Most were fine, a couple were a pain so I ignored them or pretended to be a recorded message saying the same thing!

TTFTM x

NorthernSoul1990

Afternoon all,

Little time since I have posted, so will provide an update.

Have had a DPP set up by the lovely people at Stepchange, genuinely cannot tell you how helpful they were throughout the whole procedure. No one should feel embarrassed to go to them, very much a credit to their profession.

Only slight negative is that today Quick Quid have emailed saying that they have sold my debt on to a collection agency. Not sure how this is when I am in a DPP.

Have passed the emails on to Stepchange, so hopefully some resolvement will come to this.

Has anyone heard of this type of situation?

Thanks

Suseka

Afternoon NS1990

Selling a debt onto a DCA is pretty standard with creditors; in my experience more so when the DMP has been running for a while and they realise that your circumstances are unlikely to change.

I note you've already contacted SC -so leave it with them for now, although they will at some point need the new account number and payment details (unless that was provided in the email from Quick Quid).

When I've had those letters I simply go online and update the debt details with the new creditor (DCA) info. The DCA then usually follows up with some form of contact/letter advising they now own the debt and so far all have agreed to continue with the existing SC arrangement.

For many their experience is its much easier to push for a default with a DCA (which is a good thing) and if they've been having hassle with the original creditor, the DCA tends to be more agreeable with freezing interest.

So don't fret

Kate_fixing_it

Some great successes! Well done everyone!

Nothing financially new from me but I have a career development meeting tomorrow (so I'm keeping hold of Monkeyballs' wotsits for now ) feeling quite positive. I know what I want so I'll ask for more and then there's room for me to compromise Made good in roads on other stuff (mostly because I can think straight without debt stress taking over my life/head) and still plodding on.

The cheque for my ancient refund arrived today - all £44 of it :rotfl: so things are looking good here too

Kate x

Karen777

Time_to_face_the_music wrote: »

Yes it does look scary the first time you see it all written down, I thought our debt was around £60,000 when I saw £82,344 in black and white, I sat and cried. First you need to look at it and think I am doing something about this and be proud that you are. Next you should prepare yourself that your debt may increase slightly in the first few weeks, most people experience this but it soon settles and starts to go down.

Hear hear. I was horrified when I realised that my debts were way worse than my head in the sand calculation. But once you have faced it once, you just keep moving forward. I had my LBM when I thought to myself 'I never need to feel this bad again' and to be fair, so far, I haven't. (Keeps fingers crossed). It truly was a dark - and then a light - moment.

Time_to_face_the_music wrote: »

Regarding phone calls, it is really your decision whether to answer them or not. I printed out my reference number and answered calls, telling them I was setting up a DMP, my reference number is XXXXXXX and please speak to SC (then CCCS) who are authorised to act on my behalf. Most were fine, a couple were a pain so I ignored them or pretended to be a recorded message saying the same thing!

TTFTM x

that made me laugh a lot (I'm too old and uncool to type lol in a serious way I think!). that's a great tip, pretending to be a recorded message. Top marks.... :T:D

Karen777

oh and well done all on successes and steps forward - and good luck with your career development meeting Kate!

A weird update from me - I am soooo looking forward to pay day (next week) cos I am ringing up all my creditors and making payments myself for the first time. That's a whole load of change from the old me for sure.... I have up to date balances and phone numbers and a shiny new book with everything in it ... I may even get down into the 13000s .... I've gone geek and am loving it!!!

Powered_By_Pies

A small update from me too...

No real news on the DMP recently, Westcot have accepted the repayment for the two Natworst accounts they hold and didn't even raise an eyebrow let alone a fight about it, QQ have sent me a notice of default but that's no surprise and just another to strike off the list, I think the only one who are squinnying like bandits are lending stream but the debt (from memory, paperwork's not to hand) is so small (about £80 from memory) that I might just do a f&f in the next couple of months and flick them off of my shoulder.

Wonga are all good and getting their money, natworst credit cards are happy for the next 6 months.... Easy for now, I'm just waiting for one of them to randomly kick up a fuss out of the blue and send it to some moron company like mucky hell or dare I say it motormouth!

The good news is I got my tax rebate calculation through the post today so hopefully means the cheque follows it tomorrow, so I can get that put into the bank on Saturday. Funds are tight but I've amazed even myself at how well I've budgeted and still got left - I can learn things! It's incredible!

Sazzie23

Powered_By_Pies wrote: »

A small update from me too...

No real news on the DMP recently, Westcot have accepted the repayment for the two Natworst accounts they hold and didn't even raise an eyebrow let alone a fight about it, QQ have sent me a notice of default but that's no surprise and just another to strike off the list, I think the only one who are squinnying like bandits are lending stream but the debt (from memory, paperwork's not to hand) is so small (about £80 from memory) that I might just do a f&f in the next couple of months and flick them off of my shoulder.

Wonga are all good and getting their money, natworst credit cards are happy for the next 6 months.... Easy for now, I'm just waiting for one of them to randomly kick up a fuss out of the blue and send it to some moron company like mucky hell or dare I say it motormouth!

The good news is I got my tax rebate calculation through the post today so hopefully means the cheque follows it tomorrow, so I can get that put into the bank on Saturday. Funds are tight but I've amazed even myself at how well I've budgeted and still got left - I can learn things! It's incredible!

PbP you're in the driving seat -great news