Uni short changing students on lessons and advice?

[Deleted User]

Not sure if should post here or in training.

My son is a student nearing the end of his first year at uni. He's not happy with the course on many levels and has been wondering if he should switch to a different subject but he's unsure what to do and afraid of making a mistake.

To start off with it could just be adjusting and the first year is probably a bit of a shock.

Have advised him to speak to his tutors and head of department. He has. Problem is that lecture groups are huge and seminar groups are too so the tutors don't know him and don't seem to be able to tell from his work so far if he is suited to the course. He has spoken to several tutors including the head of the department and has got nowhere. If he isn't on course to gain a degree he needs to quit now in my view. Or he needs to find a similar course elsewhere or a change of direction.

Am concerned generally that he (and others) are being shortchanged. He gets 9 hours of lectures (yes, I did say 9) for his £9000.00 and whilst he is happy to do a lot of study outside of those hours it doesn't seem like very much and when you take into account the time wasted settling into the class and getting out plus any early finishes you've probably wiped out a couple of hours each week leaving 7. Any teachers reading this need to get out of schools and into uni teaching!

So I'm looking for advice on the different aspects - does this seem reasonable in terms of hours? As he's got nowhere getting personal advice on the course and he tells me he's spent most of this last term trying to get some advice, should I now make a move and contact the uni direct?

At the end of the day he's paying for this and he will have to pay the money back so I feel he should be getting more for his money and I think they should be making more effort to assess his work and give him an opinion and options.

Opinions gratefully received.

GoldenShadow

I finished my degree this year, so a very recent graduate.

Firstly, university is not like secondary school. You aren't given pointers on what you can achieve and spoon fed so that achieve it. It is much more up to the individual. Universities generally have personal tutors that students can seek advice from, but I never found them much help to be honest. It was rare they ever knew you well enough to advise on anything.

What degree is he doing? I did Business Management. Year one I had 12 hours, years two and three I had 8 hours per week. That isn't a lot, but I always felt I was paying more for the right to take the exams/coursework than for the actual tuition. If lecturers go on strike you don't get a reduction in the fees you pay. My lecturers would forget to turn up or leave early because they had somewhere to be or disliked the seminar group they were teaching. I would try not to think of it in terms of the hours of tuition taught, its more the resources and everything available for the money, as extortionate as 9K seems.

I think university is what you make it to be honest. Lecturers are responsible for hundreds of students, its not possible for module leaders to be able to advise everyone on their own circumstances. Even in my (smaller) uni, there would be 100 people in a lecture and 50 of those to each tutor in seminar groups. With one hour a week per 25 people, it wouldn't be possible to advise people individually.

I don't personally think you should get involved. As you say, your son is the one paying the loan back, not you, and he needs to be able to make his own decisions and decide what is right for himself. How is he doing grade wise with the work he has done so far?

I don't think uni is right for everyone. I think too many people go and don't use their degree to get a grad level job. I don't care about the uni experience enough to spend that money and not use the degree, so if your son doesn't think he can come out with a decent degree I would potentially reconsider staying at uni and look at other options. In the same breath re changing subject, once you have a degree you don't have to stay in your subject area, a degree is a degree. Switching subject may allow him to enjoy it more, but it might not, it could just drag the process on for an extra year. I guess it ultimately hinges on whether your son can get a good degree, ie. one to secure a grad job he will enjoy, or not.

I genuinely don't think a lot of my lecturers were very good at what they did. I think a lot of them were in academia because they weren't good enough to work in industry. Sad, but true. If I could turn back the clock I wouldn't change anything, because I still put in 16 hour days for weeks at a time to get my degree and it has landed me my dream job. I don't know how I did it really, I don't think I even learnt that much from my degree, I just worked my !!!! off and made sure I made friends with the right people..! University is very different to secondary school, I don't think 9K a year for what is on offer where I went is value for money at all, but it depends what the alternatives are and what the end result is likely to be.

I hope you don't think I'm being harsh. I don't think university is as a lot of people expect it to be. Its hard without knowing what grades your son is getting, what area he is studying and what he wants to do after, to be able to advise, too!

[Deleted User]

I don't think you are being harsh. I knew, of course, he had to do much of the work himself, etc.

I want to make the right decision about whether to get involved and ultimately I want him to be able to make the right decision but I don't think he can see the wood for the trees at the moment.

I'm a bit shocked that it is such a rubbish experience though for you and for him. He does love uni and is on the student committee and vice captain in some sports teams.

I hadn't wanted to name the uni or the course for his privacy although I will say he is doing business.

dizzie

Beremy,

I understand your concerns. If your son feels that he is struggling, then he should be able to approach the university. I think they should have a duty to take your son's concerns seriously and assist your son by sitting down with him to work out why he is struggling and brainstorm possible solutions. If they are not taking his concerns seriously, then he needs to use the university's grievance policy to escalate this formally and ask them to look at this.

That said, I can't say I have a lot of faith in grievance policies which are not processed by an independent body. For example, a relative of mine applied to do an MSC some years back. The course was designed to incorporate a group project but she was the only English student in this group of six people (with the rest of the students coming from China). The project was placed right at the beginning of the year, and needless to say, the Chinese students panicked, because they were still trying to orientate themselves in the UK both in terms of being in a different country and having to familiarise themselves with a completely different style of education. They had no idea how to go about any of the tasks that the students were meant to delegate between themselves. As a consequence, my relative was bombarded with questions and pleas for help from the rest of the group who were hoping that she would just do the work singlehandedly for all six of the group. The tutors were not interested in the problem, and one can hardly blame the Chinese students....it was the design of the course at fault. Essentially, the university failed to remedy the situation and when the university's only reply was " Well just do what you can because we don't tend to fail people", she realised the empty value of the course, and since she was already behind with other work due to the project issues, she left the course!

In summary, universities are businesses and they are providing a service....and you have a right to have an opinion on the delivery of the course and whether it represents value for money. You shouldn't be expected to "shut up and put up" or be fobbed off if you are having issues with the course.

As for the whole £9,000 issue for 10 hours or less contact time a week in a huge lecture theatre packed with countless young people. It's a rip off - pure and simple! I can't understand how anyone could think it is acceptable to pay this rate, just for the privilege of being able to self-study and take the exams. But that is the situation that has been imposed upon English students....there isn't any choice now if you want to study in the UK.

Interestingly, I have two boys both of whom are off to uni this year. One will be studying in the UK (on a course which only offers around 10 hours contact time per year), and of course, he will only be there for 7 months of the year (since British unis have long holidays for most courses). In contrast, my other son rejected the idea of applying to study in the UK, and despite questions from school, he refused to submit an UCAS application. Instead, he is interested in studying exactly the same subject abroad and he has a place at a Dutch university. Just to give you some idea, the Dutch university will offer twice as many "contact hours" per week. He will also study for 10.5 months of the year (holidays are much shorter).....so he gets far more value......all for a tuition fee of around £1500.

Since it has been realised that the changes to tuition fees are NOT in fact going to benefit the British taxpayer after all....I think it is time that a lot more people started to ask more questions!

Wishing your son every success with his education and future career. I sincerely hope that he will be able to resolve the issues he is experiencing.

DaveTheMus

I think your son needs to stand on his own two....

dizzie

DaveTheMus....that's a little harsh isn't it. What gave you the impression that the OPs son couldn't stand "on his own two"? The OP says that her son has tried to discuss this with staff at the university....and it seems to be that they are not taking his concerns seriously.

Is it wrong of a parent to be concerned that her son may be wasting his time and money? Funny how you can be so harsh, when in reality, the government don't expect young people to "stand on their own two" financially do they? If they did, they wouldn't calculate loan amounts on parental income!

Plenty of people come on here to seek advice. Should the OP not try to advise her son simply because he/she is this person's parent? What's the difference between other people seeking help and this parent and his/her son? Perhaps we should advocate that everyone should stand "on their own two" and never ask anyone else for help or advice!

You may be interested to know that I helped my relative pursue her case legally when her uni tried to claim tuition for the whole of the year and refused to offer a solution, or acknowledge that the course design made it untenable for her to continue.

She, like many people, had a tendency to worry that she (as a lowly individual) had no right to challenge some great perceived hierarchy (who must be right). She also worried about ruffling feathers and whether this would affect the staff's attitude towards her as a student.

Well....she won! Because sometimes organisations - be they universities or local government departments, or large companies......just sometimes, they get it wrong. In my opinion, people should never feel embarrassed, worried, intimidated or overwhelmed by the "system" enough to feel unable to challenge that system if things go wrong.

[Deleted User]

Thank you for your support and helping clarify things for me and Dave you haven't read my post properly plus we all need a bit of help from time to time.

I think son number 2 will be looking to go abroad …

dizzie

Well Beremy, if your second son needs any help in understanding the Dutch system, just PM me. It's organised a little differently to the UK system....but they do some fantastic batchelors degrees which are taught entirely in English. Moreover, the Dutch speak excellent English.....often a little better than the English speak the language themselves!

Indie_Kid

Your son should have a personal tutor he can talk to, in regards to concerns about his course.

GoldenShadow

Beremy wrote: »

I don't think you are being harsh. I knew, of course, he had to do much of the work himself, etc.

I want to make the right decision about whether to get involved and ultimately I want him to be able to make the right decision but I don't think he can see the wood for the trees at the moment.

I'm a bit shocked that it is such a rubbish experience though for you and for him. He does love uni and is on the student committee and vice captain in some sports teams.

I hadn't wanted to name the uni or the course for his privacy although I will say he is doing business.

It just is so vastly different, wasn't what I expected. But then I did go to a Grammar School and I think they are quite different at times too.

I went to Anglia Ruskin, came out yesterday they had more complaints than any other uni in the last year I think? Not surprised, and they still fail to act on most of them. Very poor. My dissertation supervisor decided she didn't want to be my supervisor anymore six weeks before hand in, so I got a brand new one who hated pretty much everything I had done. Had to redo most of it, but thank goodness that first supervisor did dump me because I think she had been advising me how good my work was with rose tinted spectacles on.

I think its hard for you to get involved because ultimately, both being unfamiliar with the way it all works makes it hard to advise. Sadly I do think your son's first year probably is reflective of what his next two will be like. If he can get a 2:1 out of it (in a subject like business) I am sure he will stand a good chance of finding something grad wise that he can enjoy. There are an awful lot of business graduates though, so you do need to be one of the 'better' ones (it is a fair bit harder with a 2:2), if that makes sense. I spent my time at uni enriching my CV and it definitely paid off. Again, my uni offered no help or guidance in regard to graduate jobs at all. I applied for schemes because I knew when they opened, no one ever once said anything to me about them.

If you want to PM me at any point and talk specifics do feel free. I got a First Class in my degree and have vague hints and tips that I could offer to make the most of what is available to your son. It does also depend on the alternative if he didn't continue uni, is that any better? Would he enjoy a vocational course type of thing where job prospects are more straight forward afterwards etc.

Voyager2002

GoldenShadow wrote: »

I finished my degree this year, so a very recent graduate.

SNIP

I genuinely don't think a lot of my lecturers were very good at what they did. I think a lot of them were in academia because they weren't good enough to work in industry.

Bizarre comment: it is so much more difficult to build a career in a university than in teaching!

The behaviour from lecturers that you describe in your post (which is otherwise spot-on) was not acceptable, but results from the way their work is assessed and rewarded, rather than intrinsic ability.