Popla appeal help needed!!

I have received a letter informing me that my appeal against a PCN has been turned down.
I have already submitted an appeal to POPLA. My dispute is that I did pay the correct amount for parking in the Albert Street car park in Birmingham town centre at the correct time, and typed in my registration as requested. The ticket when issued did not show the registration as I had typed it in but on seeing the next customers ticket having a similar 'code' I assumed that this was some other way of logging the vehicle details with the cameras in use.

I strongly dispute the claim made in the letter that I 'entered the details' on the ticket rather than my registration number saying that the 'machine will only print the details you input in the keypad' when this was quite clearly not the case!

After trawling through pages of poster it seems evident to me that I needed to provide more information! - so far I have only included the info above, a photo of the ticket and paragraph from excels letter claiming I inputted the reg incorrectly.

I haven't found any advice for supporting an appeal where the ticket was paid for correctly, or where the fault was evidently with the machine!!

Is there anything else I can add to my appeal- and does it need to be more formal?!
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Replies

  • Guys_DadGuys_Dad Forumite
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    You will almost certainly fail with your appeal to POPLA if it is based on tthis post.

    Please read the NEWBIES thread and a template appeal based on Signs, contract and GPEOL.

    The get a proper winning supplement appeal in.
  • da_ruleda_rule Forumite
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    I am nearly completely certain that your appeal as it stands now will fail.

    This is not becoming rather repetitive but POPLA are not interested in whether you paid for a ticket, the machine was broken, the ticket blew out of the window or whether fairies came along and ate it. They are interested in legal arguments.

    Legal arguments are those contained in the countless successful POPLA appeal templates contained in the Newbies sticky thread.

    I would suggest you do three things (providing you still have any time left to appeal in):
    1) Redraft your appeal using the templates in the Newbies thread; then
    2) E-mail a copy of it to POPLA and ask them to substitute it for the one you submitted online; and
    3) Send it to POPLA by post with a covering letter again asking them to substitute it for the one you submitted online.
  • edited 31 May 2014 at 6:26PM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    edited 31 May 2014 at 6:26PM
    Vw_driver wrote: »
    I have received a letter informing me that my appeal against a PCN has been turned down.
    I have already submitted an appeal to POPLA.


    My dispute is that I did pay the correct amount for parking in the Albert Street car park in Birmingham town centre at the correct time, and typed in my registration as requested. The ticket when issued did not show the registration as I had typed it in but on seeing the next customers ticket having a similar 'code' I assumed that this was some other way of logging the vehicle details with the cameras in use.

    I strongly dispute the claim made in the letter that I 'entered the details' on the ticket rather than my registration number saying that the 'machine will only print the details you input in the keypad' when this was quite clearly not the case!

    After trawling through pages of poster it seems evident to me that I needed to provide more information!

    Oh dear. You need to email POPLA some proper appeal points QUICKLY because that dispute is barking up the 'losing tree' re POPLA. Just take the 1, 2 and 3 appeal points from the NEWBIES first appeal template and email those of to POPLA, as long as it's a PPC which uses a 'breach of contract' model.

    Which PPC?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • PCC was Excel. The appeal letter was from Vehicle Control Services limited
  • edited 31 May 2014 at 10:41PM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    edited 31 May 2014 at 10:41PM
    Vw_driver wrote: »
    PCC was Excel. The appeal letter was from Vehicle Control Services limited
    That's interesting - we've heard about them making the same mistake before! They are both different companies but both owned by Simon Renshaw-Smith and obviously they are getting in a muddle which adds to your appeal points. So I would email POPLA with the usual 3 points from the NEWBIES first appeal (even though I realise this isn't a first appeal, they are the main 3 points to add!). Plus add clearly what you have noticed about the 2 different companies so that effectively, you can argue that Excel never sent you a reply to appeal and it's completely unclear which company you are dealing with and whether the signs even match the company who think they 'contracted' with you.

    But as long as you are quick and word it well you'll win on 'no GPEOL' or no standing/authority. Probably best to expand a little on each of the 3 main points so click on 'How to win at POPLA' in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread as well and read the examples where people have used paragraphs in POPLA appeals about signage (it is ALWAYS unclear), no GPEOL and no authority/contract/standing.

    Make sure the subject line of the email has the correct 10 digit appeal code & the words 'ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE - URGENT' and state clearly to POPLA that you require this ''additional evidence'' to be considered by the Assessor and Excel/VCS or whoever they think they are today.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Vw_driverVw_driver Forumite
    5 Posts
    This is what I have written so far - I haven included information about signage as I can't remember what the signs were like - other than being very wordy. I only read the relevant instructions for the machine and followed those when purchasing the ticket.


    Dear POPLA Assessor,

    I am the registered keeper of vehicle registration Xxxxxx and I wish to appeal a recent parking charge number Xxxxxx using POPLA appeal code: xxxxxx

    My appeal was refused by Excel/Vehicle Control Services Limited because I had not provided sufficient evidence to support my appeal.

    I am appealing this penalty on the grounds stated below, and I respectfully ask that all points are taken into consideration.

    1. The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    2. Alleged Failure to purchase a valid parking ticket
    3. Insufficient Proof that the ticket machine was working correctly.

    1.Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    In their response Excel Parking/ Vehicle Control Service has not stated why they feel a £60 charge is an appropriate pre-estimate of loss despite the fact that a parking ticket was purchased by the appellant, for the value of £4.00 to cover the period 11:20 - 15:50 on xxxxxx
    The Department for Transport guidelines state, in Section 16 Frequently Asked Questions, that: "Charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable and a genuine pre-estimate of loss. This means charges must compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer because the parking contract has been broken. For example, to cover the unpaid charges and the administrative costs associated with issuing the ticket to recover the charges. Charges may not be set at higher levels than necessary to recover business losses and the intention should not be to penalise the driver." In this case, Excel Parking has failed to provide any calculation to show how the £100 figure is arrived at, whether as an actual or pre-estimated loss. It is the Appellant's position that Excel Parking has suffered no loss whatsoever in this case. Even if there was a contract (which is denied), the £100 parking charge is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. There has been no loss to the landowner as a parking ticket was obtained on entry. I put Excel Parking to strict proof to provide POPLA with a ‘Genuine Pre-estimate of Loss’ incurred due to the vehicle remaining on their parking area for any given period of time. I require the parking company to submit a breakdown of how these costs are calculated. All of these costs must represent a loss resulting from the alleged breach. For example, were no breach to have occurred then the cost of parking enforcement (for example, erecting signage, wages, uniforms, office costs) would still have been the same and, therefore, may not be included. It would, therefore, follow that these charges were punitive, have an element of profit included and are not allowed to be imposed by parking companies.
    Citizens advice state that:'When you are issued with a parking ticket, landowners can only claim compensation for losses they have suffered because you parked where you shouldn’t have or stayed too long. For example, they can claim for lost income if you blocked a space someone else could have used and paid for, but only where the car park was full and there were no parking spaces left. They can also claim compensation if you stayed too long, didn’t pay the right amount or didn’t pay at all.' In this instance the correct amount was paid as evident from the ticket in image 1.

    2. Alleged Failure to purchase a P&D ticket. I have submitted evidence to show the purchased P&D ticket. This was purchased 7 minutes after entry to the Albert Street car park - within the terms and conditions, for a period of 5 hours. Departure from the car park was at 15:50 - 30 Minutes before the expiry of the ticket. The ticket was purchased in accordance with the regulations and instructions. This included inputting the full vehicle registration: Xxxxxx The ticket was displayed correctly on the windscreen as per regulations (image 3)

    3. Insufficient proof has been provided that the P&D machine was in correct working order. The appellant would challenge Excel Parking/ Vehicle Control Services to provide evidence that their ANPR equipment is maintained as described in the BPA Code of Practice that states under paragraph 21.3, parking companies are required to ensure ANPR equipment is maintained and is in correct working order. I question the entire reliability of the system and require records with dates and times of when the equipment was checked, calibrated and maintained.
    I would like proof too that the pay and display machine will only print the details inputted on the key pad, and their proof that the details 'T2234YA4H' were inputted on this occasion (See image2). This is an invalid format for a registration plate and I strongly dispute their claims that I entered these details rather than my own registration plate details. Furthermore, I would question whether subsequent PCNs were issued under similar grounds indicating a fault. The following ticket issued by the machine also showed a similar 'code.' I would dispute that 2 complete strangers would have reason to input vehicle registration details in the same way. I had no reason or intention to defraud this company in this way and purchased my parking ticket in good faith.
    With all this in mind, I request that my appeal is upheld and for POPLA to inform ParkingEye to cancel the PCN.

    Yours faithfully,
  • edited 1 June 2014 at 12:10PM
    RedxRedx Forumite
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    edited 1 June 2014 at 12:10PM
    I think you are missing the point about signage here

    its not for you to prove they are right or wrong, doesnt matter if you cannot decide if they follow the BPA CoP or not

    you include signage so they have to prove their signs are valid and meet the CoP which excel dont as they use blue on yellow or similar , not say white on black or black on white

    so you allege the signage doesnt comply , they have to then jump throuh hoops proving it does, many times they use the wrong maps , the wrong numbers of signs , all kinds of errors can creep in and parking prankster has blogged about this many times

    basically , its innocent until proven guilty , you make the prosecution prove their case

    its a bit like andrew mitchell not saying what he said (allegedly) , its the person making the allegation that has to prove what they say is accurate , he says it isnt, but he has never said what he actually spoke about that day, in exact words

    my point is put the signage in , so you dispute its validity, they then have to address the point and prove it is valid in all aspects and meets the BPA CoP

    dont do their job for them , you already failed due to the mitigation argument you placed as your appeal , truth doesnt matter here, like proving a ticket was bought on the day etc, it tells you that on the popla website which you should have read before appealing to popla

    what you are doing now is making legal points you want answering, the person bringing the action has to prove the validity of their side in bringing this action (the issuing of the parking charge invoice)

    martin cutts did this in court in 2011 and proved excel signage in stockport failed in a number of ways, its been changed twice since, you will rarely find any BPA compliant signage by any PPC so I doubt excel signage in Birmingham is any different !

    as coupon-mad clearly mentioned here
    and read the examples where people have used paragraphs in POPLA appeals about signage (it is ALWAYS unclear), no GPEOL and no authority/contract/standing.
    ALWAYS UNCLEAR = NEVER CLEAR

    use all the ammunition in your clip at this stage, as there is no second stage, this being your one and only chance to quash the allegation and walk away owing nothing - seize the moment , now !

    to reiterate what coupon-mad said earlier , 3 points need to be included, you have only included point 1)

    here they are again , in bullet point form
    1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
    2) Your signage does not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
    3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass
    you are still dwelling on "what happened" and this ticket you bought , instead of legal arguments , until your first 3 appeal points match those 3 bullet points above, you have not done the task set in order for you to win (nb:- money is at stake here , ie:- your money)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • da_ruleda_rule Forumite
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    As Redx said, include the template points on signage. Also, your point 3 should be split, one to deal with the pay and display machine and then one to deal with ANPR. You will again find template paragraphs that go into much more detail.

    Also, you haven't included any of the other template arguments such as 'no valid contract with the land owner'. The idea is to make as much work for the parking company as possible so it is not worth them fighting the appeal.
  • Guys_DadGuys_Dad Forumite
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    Why oh why don't you follow the template appeals more closely and stop adding irrelevant things about what Citizens Advice. In addition the long paragraph beginning with the Department of Transport.......... need splitting down and paragraphing. It just runs on and on.

    On signage, go to this link http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_-_V4,_Feb_2014.pdf

    Then look at Appendix B. This states what the entrance signs must be like.

    In your appeal you write. "I contend that the entrance signs do not comply with the specification in the BPA AOS requirements. I demand that the PPC produces evidence that their signage complies with that specification or show where they have pre-notified the BPA about the reasons why they are unable to do so."

    You then further refer to section 18 of the same document and say that you contend that they have also failed to follow the BPA requirements in respect of other signs and put them to strict proof to produce evidence that they have done so.

    It is not up to you to show that they haven't it is up to them to prove they have if you challenge the point.

    When they sunbit pictures of their signage in their evidence, compare that with the BPA AOS and then pointb out in a subsequent submission where they have failed.
  • Does anyone have appropriate wording to add to the letter re signage?

    I have also looked though the PCN - there is no reference that VCS are working on behalf of Excel....
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