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PCN help please...
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iwanttosave44
Posts: 31 Forumite
Hi guys some time ago i posted on here re a PCN from Excel for stopping at an airport which i had received 4 months after the incident (which was seconds) and also after moving abroad in Feb so had missed the deadline for the reduced fee and appeal and the second letter arrived until i went home for a visit. I followed advice on here and used a draft letter but also stated by new address out of this country. I got a standard reply asking for all the information i had provided and the drivers name. I did post it on here but was told it was a standard reply so ignored it. This morning I went back on my email to check but its one i don't use very often so the reply had been there 10 days. It is copies below. But also the time they have given me to pay is 14 days but the date they have given is prior to their letter date and my correspondence date in April. I am now worried and confused by all these draft letters stating certain facts and unsure as to where to turn next other than paying the £100 which would be easiest. I am also restricted to time this week and as I say live out of the UK now but do still have my house there with family in it.
Any help would be really appreciated, I am feeling quite lost at the minute and have tried reading the NEWBIES section but I think the fact i replied late initially, live out of the uk maybe makes it difficult.
Copy letter -
Our Ref: xxxxxxxxx
Date: xx xxxxxx 2014
M xxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx
not in the uk
Dear M
Notice Serial No:
Vehicle Registration Mark:
Date & Time of Issue:
We are in receipt of recent correspondence received on 2014 in connection with the above referenced Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
We can confirm that DVLA records indicate that you were the Registered Keeper of the above vehicle on the date the contractually agreed Terms and Conditions were breached. In the PARKING CHARGE NOTICE it clearly stated that you had 28 days to either appeal, settle the Notice by making payment, or provide a serviceable name and UK address for the driver so that we may pursue them. Despite this request, a full name and serviceable address for the driver has not been provided.
Please be aware that as you have failed to provide us with the full name and UK serviceable address for the driver within the 28 day period stipulated on the PCN, we are now within our rights to recover from the Registered Keeper under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
With reference to the comments made within your correspondence, we would make the following comments:
Whilst we understand your concern at receiving a Notice, it is entirely the motorist's responsibility to ensure that they adhere to the Terms and Conditions of use for the airports private access roads. The roadway in question is part of a high security zone and as such motorists are clearly advised not to park, stop or wait on double yellow lines, red routes zones or roadways at any time. Such actions may also pose an obstruction or danger to other road users. There are numerous warning signs in place along the
private access roads and we attach a copy of the signs for your reference.
In response to your comments, we can confirm that on the xxth xxxxx 2013, the driver stopped the vehicle in a prohibited area. Whilst we appreciate the circumstances you have described however, the driver stopped in an area where they could have caused obstruction to other drivers. Please be advised that our signage located throughout the area clearly state "No Stopping at Any Time". It is the motorist's responsibility to ensure that he/she is fully aware and compliant with the Terms and Conditions of this area.
We consider the amount on the PCN as a reasonable charge for liquidated damages in respect of a breach of the parking contract. We have calculated this sum as a genuine pre-estimate of our losses as we incur significant costs in managing the parking location to ensure compliance to the stated Terms and Conditions and to follow up on any breaches of these identified. A full breakdown of loss will be provided should the matter proceed to court. We would also re-cite the case of Parking Eye v. Mr Kevin Shelley (2013).
Furthermore, Signage on the approach roads is reflective and positioned to face oncoming motorists and has been approved by senior management at the BPA. Text size is relative to the average approach speed of an approaching vehicle on those roads.
Please be advised Vehicle Control Services Ltd are contracted by the landowner to provide management and enforcement on the access roads leading to Liverpool Airport. As such, we are authorised to issue Parking Charge Notices for contraventions on the access roads Terms and Conditions which are duly displayed on all signage at this site. Please be advised that the case of VCS v HMRC has been overturned following a successful appeal by VCS.
Vehicle Control Services Ltd operate in Common Law under the Laws of Contract and Trespass. It is trite law that a motorist choosing to enter and use private land for authorised uses, does so in full and tacit acceptance of the Terms and Conditions in operation. These Terms and Conditions are in operation from the moment a person enters onto private land. It follows that should the motorist breach the Terms and Conditions or commit a trespass to the land, we are entitled to seek damages from the motorist to the value of the charges as indicated on the signage on site. On the day in question, your vehicle was issued with a Parking Charge Notice because it breached this contract, and the relevant charge is consequently recoverable under Contract Law. Please be advised that a person can enter into a contract either by expressly agreeing to do so, or by acting in such a way that he/she can be said to have implied agreement to enter into a contract. Where notice is given to a motorist of the consequences of parking in a particular area, by implications a motorist enters into a contract with Vehicle Control Services Ltd and accepts the terms set out in the Notice by proceeding to stop. It follows that should a motorist breach the Terms and Conditions in operation we are entitled to seek our damages as clearly detailed on the signage displayed throughout the facility.
The PCN does not attract VAT, as VAT does not apply to trespass, as such your points are irrelevant as no contract is formed for this matter.
We are satisfied that the Parking Charge Notice has been issued correctly, and that sufficient attention was brought to the driver with regards to the Terms and Conditions enforced. We will not accept any further appeals.
The Parking Charge Notice now stands at £100.00, due to your failure to appeal/pay the PCN within 14 days, as such you need to make payment of £100.00 payable, by the xx XX 2014 (A PAST DATE PRIOR TO THIS LETTER DATE/ SAME DATE AS MY CORRESPONDENCE)
You do have the option to appeal to the 'Parking on Private Land Appeals' (POPLA) service, which is an independent body. Guidance notes on your grounds for appeal and how to make an appeal can be found at the POPLA website; https://www.popla.org.uk/makinganappeal.htm
Your POPLA Verification Code is: XXXXXXX
Please visit https://www.popla.org.uk/appeal.htm to submit an appeal online.
It is important you note that if you wish to appeal to POPLA, the discount offer will no longer apply and the full Parking Charge will be pursued should your appeal be rejected by POPLA. Further costs may be incurred should it be necessary for us to subsequently recover any outstanding charge using debt recovery and/or court action.
Any help would be really appreciated, I am feeling quite lost at the minute and have tried reading the NEWBIES section but I think the fact i replied late initially, live out of the uk maybe makes it difficult.
Copy letter -
Our Ref: xxxxxxxxx
Date: xx xxxxxx 2014
M xxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx
not in the uk
Dear M
Notice Serial No:
Vehicle Registration Mark:
Date & Time of Issue:
We are in receipt of recent correspondence received on 2014 in connection with the above referenced Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
We can confirm that DVLA records indicate that you were the Registered Keeper of the above vehicle on the date the contractually agreed Terms and Conditions were breached. In the PARKING CHARGE NOTICE it clearly stated that you had 28 days to either appeal, settle the Notice by making payment, or provide a serviceable name and UK address for the driver so that we may pursue them. Despite this request, a full name and serviceable address for the driver has not been provided.
Please be aware that as you have failed to provide us with the full name and UK serviceable address for the driver within the 28 day period stipulated on the PCN, we are now within our rights to recover from the Registered Keeper under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
With reference to the comments made within your correspondence, we would make the following comments:
Whilst we understand your concern at receiving a Notice, it is entirely the motorist's responsibility to ensure that they adhere to the Terms and Conditions of use for the airports private access roads. The roadway in question is part of a high security zone and as such motorists are clearly advised not to park, stop or wait on double yellow lines, red routes zones or roadways at any time. Such actions may also pose an obstruction or danger to other road users. There are numerous warning signs in place along the
private access roads and we attach a copy of the signs for your reference.
In response to your comments, we can confirm that on the xxth xxxxx 2013, the driver stopped the vehicle in a prohibited area. Whilst we appreciate the circumstances you have described however, the driver stopped in an area where they could have caused obstruction to other drivers. Please be advised that our signage located throughout the area clearly state "No Stopping at Any Time". It is the motorist's responsibility to ensure that he/she is fully aware and compliant with the Terms and Conditions of this area.
We consider the amount on the PCN as a reasonable charge for liquidated damages in respect of a breach of the parking contract. We have calculated this sum as a genuine pre-estimate of our losses as we incur significant costs in managing the parking location to ensure compliance to the stated Terms and Conditions and to follow up on any breaches of these identified. A full breakdown of loss will be provided should the matter proceed to court. We would also re-cite the case of Parking Eye v. Mr Kevin Shelley (2013).
Furthermore, Signage on the approach roads is reflective and positioned to face oncoming motorists and has been approved by senior management at the BPA. Text size is relative to the average approach speed of an approaching vehicle on those roads.
Please be advised Vehicle Control Services Ltd are contracted by the landowner to provide management and enforcement on the access roads leading to Liverpool Airport. As such, we are authorised to issue Parking Charge Notices for contraventions on the access roads Terms and Conditions which are duly displayed on all signage at this site. Please be advised that the case of VCS v HMRC has been overturned following a successful appeal by VCS.
Vehicle Control Services Ltd operate in Common Law under the Laws of Contract and Trespass. It is trite law that a motorist choosing to enter and use private land for authorised uses, does so in full and tacit acceptance of the Terms and Conditions in operation. These Terms and Conditions are in operation from the moment a person enters onto private land. It follows that should the motorist breach the Terms and Conditions or commit a trespass to the land, we are entitled to seek damages from the motorist to the value of the charges as indicated on the signage on site. On the day in question, your vehicle was issued with a Parking Charge Notice because it breached this contract, and the relevant charge is consequently recoverable under Contract Law. Please be advised that a person can enter into a contract either by expressly agreeing to do so, or by acting in such a way that he/she can be said to have implied agreement to enter into a contract. Where notice is given to a motorist of the consequences of parking in a particular area, by implications a motorist enters into a contract with Vehicle Control Services Ltd and accepts the terms set out in the Notice by proceeding to stop. It follows that should a motorist breach the Terms and Conditions in operation we are entitled to seek our damages as clearly detailed on the signage displayed throughout the facility.
The PCN does not attract VAT, as VAT does not apply to trespass, as such your points are irrelevant as no contract is formed for this matter.
We are satisfied that the Parking Charge Notice has been issued correctly, and that sufficient attention was brought to the driver with regards to the Terms and Conditions enforced. We will not accept any further appeals.
The Parking Charge Notice now stands at £100.00, due to your failure to appeal/pay the PCN within 14 days, as such you need to make payment of £100.00 payable, by the xx XX 2014 (A PAST DATE PRIOR TO THIS LETTER DATE/ SAME DATE AS MY CORRESPONDENCE)
You do have the option to appeal to the 'Parking on Private Land Appeals' (POPLA) service, which is an independent body. Guidance notes on your grounds for appeal and how to make an appeal can be found at the POPLA website; https://www.popla.org.uk/makinganappeal.htm
Your POPLA Verification Code is: XXXXXXX
Please visit https://www.popla.org.uk/appeal.htm to submit an appeal online.
It is important you note that if you wish to appeal to POPLA, the discount offer will no longer apply and the full Parking Charge will be pursued should your appeal be rejected by POPLA. Further costs may be incurred should it be necessary for us to subsequently recover any outstanding charge using debt recovery and/or court action.
0
Comments
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Would first advise checking the POPLA code they have given you for the deadline - use the link below
http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/popla-code-checker/
If the POPLA code is still valid, as you are pushed for time and in and out of the country you may be interested in a paid service being offered by a couple of very knowledgeable posters from the forum to help people such as yourself.
For a fee of £16 they will submit the appeals and offer a guarantee to pay the charge should the appeal not be upheld. If you are interested see
https://www.parkingticketappeals.org.uk
Alternatively, this is very winnable and you can draft your own POPLA appeal with help from the forum.0 -
Thank you for your reply Coliescarer, I have 14 days left to go via POPLA and the appeals guys say they need the code 7 days after it was received which is too late. What should I do next, sorry I am a bit stressed with all of this.0
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Don't worry - you will be able to draft a POPLA appeal yourself fairly easily - there are plenty of winning examples for that airport.
Who was the letter above received from Excel or VCS?
And which company actually originally issued the PCN to you?
You mention Excel at the start of your post but the letter above says VCS is contracted at that airport.
They are sister companies but they are two separate legal entities. Reason I ask is if VCS have the contract at the airport then Excel have no standing to be issuing a charge and pursuing it with you and this could be an extra appeal point.
Take a look at NEWBIES post #3 and follow the link for How to Win at POPLA to find example appeals - any of the airport ones will probably apply to you.
Also use the search the forum function for JLA to find threads by other posters and specific examples of POPLA's for that location.0 -
The email has come from someone at excel i.e. mrx@excelparking.co.uk but all throughout the letter states VCS and the POPLA says the code was issued by Vehicle Control Services Ltd. Today was the first time I have seen anything with Excel on it.
The original 2 letters came from VCS Ltd. Have I to mention any where that the original took 4 months to come and that now i am staying out of the country.?
I will look at the NEWBIES 3 and see if I can make sense of it.0 -
Ok if the PCN (1st letter) and the POPLA code were issued by VCS then it is them your POPLA appeal needs to refer to.
Assuming you are the keeper and the driver has not been named, then the 4 months can be mentioned in a point regarding non-compliant Notice to Keeper as received too late for keeper liability to apply, however, airport land is not relevant land regarding POFA 2012 as it is subject to byelaws, therefore there is no keeper liability anyway.
Regarding being out of the country - if you submit your POPLA on-line all acknowledgements, evidence pack and final ruling will be sent to you via the email address you provide. So as long as you have email access you will be able to deal with this.
Here are some example POPLA appeals for you to look at - all for JLA and very similar circumstances to you i.e. stopping
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4884017
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4939792
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4883109
Pretty much a copy and paste job with some minor amendments and you should be pretty much there.
Post up your draft for help fine tuning it before sending0 -
Sorry Calliercarer, mine was at Humberside Airport.0
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And? So it was an airport? There have been loads of Humberside airport threads here too (as I recall).0
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iwanttosave44 wrote: »Sorry Calliercarer, mine was at Humberside Airport.
The letter in your first post refers to Liverpool AirportPlease be advised Vehicle Control Services Ltd are contracted by the landowner to provide management and enforcement on the access roads leading to Liverpool Airport. As such, we are authorised to issue Parking Charge Notices for contraventions on the access roads Terms and Conditions which are duly displayed on all signage at this site. Please be advised that the case of VCS v HMRC has been overturned following a successful appeal by VCS.0 -
OMG I have just spotted that, they have put that in their reply it was Humberside and states that on the first two letters. Does that make any difference for my appeal ? I have not been to Liverpool airport !0
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And Bod I am being cautious I don't want to use an incorrect draft that mentions something about JLA, I searched for drafts for Humberside and it came back No Find, I shall look again. I am in a panic as I go away this week and not much time to sort it out !0
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