Is going to Ingeus compulsory or mandatory in the WRAG?

Bongo567

I feel like I am getting tricked? the job centre says they must refer me to Ingeus.. is that true?

Will I face sanctions if I don't go?

My tutor at College reckons it's mandatory.

tomtontom

Yes, they can mandate you to attend. They cannot force you to take a job but you must take place in work related activity as appropriate for your condition.

Bongo567

tomtontom wrote: »

Yes, they can mandate you to attend. They cannot force you to take a job but you must take place in work related activity as appropriate for your condition.

Like what?

And how do they judge what is suitable for your condition as everything is different at the end of the day?

Bongo567

how many times are you required to attend?

rogerblack

What is suitable for your condition is what they say is suitable for your condition that you can't get them to change their mind on.

If you are required to do something that would harm your condition, and so do not do it, you may be sanctioned.
This can then be appealed - though this may take some considerable time.

Bongo567

rogerblack wrote: »

What is suitable for your condition is what they say is suitable for your condition that you can't get them to change their mind on.

If you are required to do something that would harm your condition, and so do not do it, you may be sanctioned.
This can then be appealed - though this may take some considerable time.

There is too many variables.

If people suffer with bad anxiety, panic attacks or depression because of their illness or disability they can't be forced to do anything, the genuine cases would rather lose their money than do something which puts their mental health (which is priceless) and want to kill themselves because they can't cope with the pressure put on them - it is sick to force people in that case if they genuinely can't do it. I'm pretty sure it's not legal. Are they going to leave them with nothing (no food, bill and housing benefit money) in this case what is the biggest sanction they can do?

A lot of disabled and injured people want to work, but in the right environment and setting job it has to be suitable that is the key and there is a shortage of jobs at the minute so finding these people suitable jobs which they can do to a satisfactory standard will be the biggest challenge. But we have to be careful and shouldn't be blaming the genuine cases and alienating them especially if they was born disabled and don't know any other way we need to help each other and our own.

Morglin

Sanctions, for those on a JSA and ESA (WRAG) can last up to 3 years, but start with 4 weeks now (you can claim hardship allowance after 2 weeks).

Housing benefit can still be paid, but HB department do need to be notified that there is a 'nil' income, to keep the claim going.

You can appeal any sanction given.

You, and your advisor, need to discuss, and be clear as to any support etc., you need. They have to take health into account - if they don't then formally complain.

How to complain:
https://www.gov.uk/complain-jobcentre-plus



Facts about how sanctions are applied:

This is a fact sheet (it's a council one, but applies countrywide):

http://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/info/200008/benefits/952/jobseeker_s_allowance/4

Lin

Some additional info, courtesy of Benefits and Wotk site:


"A staggering six out of ten employment and support allowance (ESA) claimants hit with a sanction are vulnerable people with a mental health condition or learning difficulty, according DWP figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The proportion has rocketed from 35% of sanctioned claimants in 2009 to a massive 58% in 2013. The statistics prove that sanctions are now overwhelmingly aimed at the most vulnerable individuals by a government department which relies on a policy of institutional discrimination to cut benefits costs.

Sanctions of £71.70 a week are handed out when ESA claimants in the work-related activity group are forced onto the work programme and then fail to meet mandatory conditions imposed on them by private sector companies.

However, for a claimant to get into the work-related activity group on mental health grounds, they need to score a minimum of 15 points for problems with issues such as:

planning new activities,
changes in routine,
going to new places,
talking to new people,
avoiding behaving aggressively or inappropriately when stressed.
So, almost by definition, many will struggle to cope with regular and punctual attendance at training courses and work-experience placements with strangers in unfamiliar places. Even if they manage to attend they may not succeed in participating to the satisfaction of those running the courses or placements.

A MIND spokesperson told Benefits and Work:

“Based on what we hear from people we represent, these sanctions are often the result of people not being able to engage in a mandated activity because of their mental health problems; people being asked by the DWP to engage in activities that they are not well enough to undertake; and a lack of understanding at the DWP about mental health problems meaning that it is not picked up when someone had 'good cause' to miss an appointment or activity.

“Most people with mental health problems want to work, and given the right support many could. We do not believe that an effective system of support for this group of people involves continually mandating them to undertake activities under the threat of being left with no money.”

Sanctions, particularly in relation to Jobseekers Allowance (JSA), have saved the government huge amounts of money and allowed them to claim that the number of people in receipt of benefits is falling because the economy is recovering.

The statistics above relate to ESA – where ‘only’ around 20,000 claimants a year are currently sanctioned - there are no similar ones for JSA where the numbers are much higher. But many people getting JSA are claimants with mental health conditions who scored just below the 15 point threshold – often because they were wrongly assessed by health professionals with no experience of mental health issues.

And it seems exceedingly unlikely that decision making in relation to JSA sanctions is any less harsh than that for ESA.

The DWP, however, have fought hard to prevent any evidence about who is being sanctioned leaking out."

Bongo567

Morglin wrote: »

Sanctions, for those on a JSA and ESA (WRAG) can last up to 3 years, but start with 4 weeks now (you can claim hardship allowance after 2 weeks).

Housing benefit can still be paid, but HB department do need to be notified that there is a 'nil' income, to keep the claim going.

You can appeal any sanction given.

You, and your advisor, need to discuss, and be clear as to any support etc., you need. They have to take health into account - if they don't then formally complain.

How to complain:
https://www.gov.uk/complain-jobcentre-plus



Facts about how sanctions are applied:

This is a fact sheet (it's a council one, but applies countrywide):

http://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/info/200008/benefits/952/jobseeker_s_allowance/4

Lin

Some additional info, courtesy of Benefits and Wotk site:


"A staggering six out of ten employment and support allowance (ESA) claimants hit with a sanction are vulnerable people with a mental health condition or learning difficulty, according DWP figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The proportion has rocketed from 35% of sanctioned claimants in 2009 to a massive 58% in 2013. The statistics prove that sanctions are now overwhelmingly aimed at the most vulnerable individuals by a government department which relies on a policy of institutional discrimination to cut benefits costs.

Sanctions of £71.70 a week are handed out when ESA claimants in the work-related activity group are forced onto the work programme and then fail to meet mandatory conditions imposed on them by private sector companies.

However, for a claimant to get into the work-related activity group on mental health grounds, they need to score a minimum of 15 points for problems with issues such as:

planning new activities,
changes in routine,
going to new places,
talking to new people,
avoiding behaving aggressively or inappropriately when stressed.
So, almost by definition, many will struggle to cope with regular and punctual attendance at training courses and work-experience placements with strangers in unfamiliar places. Even if they manage to attend they may not succeed in participating to the satisfaction of those running the courses or placements.

A MIND spokesperson told Benefits and Work:

“Based on what we hear from people we represent, these sanctions are often the result of people not being able to engage in a mandated activity because of their mental health problems; people being asked by the DWP to engage in activities that they are not well enough to undertake; and a lack of understanding at the DWP about mental health problems meaning that it is not picked up when someone had 'good cause' to miss an appointment or activity.

“Most people with mental health problems want to work, and given the right support many could. We do not believe that an effective system of support for this group of people involves continually mandating them to undertake activities under the threat of being left with no money.”

Sanctions, particularly in relation to Jobseekers Allowance (JSA), have saved the government huge amounts of money and allowed them to claim that the number of people in receipt of benefits is falling because the economy is recovering.

The statistics above relate to ESA – where ‘only’ around 20,000 claimants a year are currently sanctioned - there are no similar ones for JSA where the numbers are much higher. But many people getting JSA are claimants with mental health conditions who scored just below the 15 point threshold – often because they were wrongly assessed by health professionals with no experience of mental health issues.

And it seems exceedingly unlikely that decision making in relation to JSA sanctions is any less harsh than that for ESA.

The DWP, however, have fought hard to prevent any evidence about who is being sanctioned leaking out."

This is the danger and inconsistency that the DWP need to fix because you can't force people to do something which they find difficult, or don't attend because of panic attacks or been around people is very unfair doesn't seem within human rights. Punishing those types of people (with sanctions of almost their whole weekly benefit) for 3 years who have scored points in those areas are wrong and the DWP shouldn't be so harsh and treat everyone the same, the genuine cases and the ones playing the system.

Give them something to do at home or something instead, as long as they are doing something it is better than nothing, right?

Morglin

Well, yes, as when this all started, anyone on ESA (WRAG) was just going to be encouraged, towards some sort of activity, and not forced into things they cannot cope with.

But, as ever, with this lousy government, it's all about making life difficult for sick and disabled.:mad:

Labour may have started ESA, but this government have gone nuts with it, and still ended up with as many people claiming it, as before :wall:

On top of this, we gave a complete logjam with claims, assessments, reviews and appeals. :doh:

Lin

Bongo567

Morglin wrote: »

Well, yes, as when this all started, anyone on ESA (WRAG) was just going to be encouraged, towards some sort of activity, and not forced into things they cannot cope with.

But, as ever, with this lousy government, it's all about making life difficult for sick and disabled.:mad:

Labour may have started ESA, but this government have gone nuts with it, and still ended up with as many people claiming it, as before :wall:

On top of this, we gave a complete logjam with claims, assessments, reviews and appeals. :doh:

Lin

Why aren't they listening and changing their approach?

Viberduo

Sorry to butt in but I am on ESA and have the general problems with punctuality and the such which is why I dropped out of college and uni a few times and used to be late for things like Ingeus or JSA appointments and used to get nowhere, for me it was simply "oh it taxes 15 minutes to get to jobcentre, I will give myself a few minutes incase it takes a while to cross a road or theres a queue" then something like it would take 10 minutes to cross a road due to cars knowing I want to cross and just not stopping so I would be late, get into a right state etc.

I remember one time when on JSA breaking my toe and spending all morning in the doctors so rang jobcentre to rearrange advisor interview but was told she was going on a 2 week holiday so couldnt be seen until she came back so I asked to see someone else and was told I couldnt then had my money stopped for not coming into the jobcentre for over 7 days(I was in same day getting forms and it was on my file)

The point of that was that with my own aspergers I had to be told by someone in the know that I was ok and ended up sleeping like 36 hours when I was told I had my money stopped for a month despite it being so nice my neighbours were having bbqs and it being so hot I sweat badly in bed.