Defence-Systems reject appeal

AS_Textiles

Hi everyone,

I have had exactly the same situation, almost identical to this: cannot link to thread because am a "newbie".

I used the excellently worded appeal by HO87 - Here: cannot link to thread because am a "newbie".

They have rejected my appeal on the basis of the below:

"After reviewing the information provided within your appeal letter and the photographic evidence that was taken in support of the issued PCN, we have decided that the parking charge was correctly issued for failing to comply with the parking conditions at the One Stop Shopping Centre. There are signs clearly stating that vehicles should not enter the bus Interchange at any time, including two No Entry signs, A Buses Only Instruction, and four other high visibility warning signs.

The land in question is “private” land and Defence Systems have been given authorisation by the land owners to manage this land in line with British Parking Association Codes of Conduct."

They have not answered most points, in particular 2,6,7 and 8 which are more or less the basis of their fine. I'm going to take this further.

They have provided me with a quote verification number to appeal with POPLA.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

trubster

Read the newbie thread >>>-HERE-<<<

Sorry, This one

HOW TO WIN AT POPLA

ColliesCarer

Thanks for creating your own thread.
I've included the link for you to the similar case inside your quoted post

Many of the point in HO's letter will still apply for your POPLA appeal
Read the NEWBIES thread post #3 and check the POPLA code using the link there for Parking Cowboys and check out How to win at POPLA.

Post up your draft for help fine tuning it from the forum members

AS_Textiles wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I have had exactly the same situation, almost identical to this: cannot link to thread because am a "newbie".

I used the excellently worded appeal by HO87 - Here: cannot link to thread because am a "newbie".

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4882320

They have rejected my appeal on the basis of the below:

"After reviewing the information provided within your appeal letter and the photographic evidence that was taken in support of the issued PCN, we have decided that the parking charge was correctly issued for failing to comply with the parking conditions at the One Stop Shopping Centre. There are signs clearly stating that vehicles should not enter the bus Interchange at any time, including two No Entry signs, A Buses Only Instruction, and four other high visibility warning signs.

The land in question is “private” land and Defence Systems have been given authorisation by the land owners to manage this land in line with British Parking Association Codes of Conduct."

They have not answered most points, in particular 2,6,7 and 8 which are more or less the basis of their fine. I'm going to take this further.

They have provided me with a quote verification number to appeal with POPLA.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

bazster

There is potentially a serious DPA breach here.

If the keeper's details were obtained by means of the KADOE system then the PPC undertook in the KADOE contract to request details only for the "reasonable cause" of recovering unpaid parking charges. Entering a bus interchange clearly has absolutely nothing to do with parking, therefore the keeper details were used for a purpose other than that for which they were requested. DPA breach.

Even if it was a paper request, I'll bet it says "parking" on it.

The OP should write to the DVLA stating that he/she believes his/her personal details have been misused and demanding to know who accessed them, when and how (and a copy of the paper request, if any).

Formal complaints to DVLA and ICO can then ensue. Brush-off results in escalation to MP and Parliamentary Ombudsman.

nigelbb

AS_Textiles wrote: »

we have decided that the parking charge was correctly issued for failing to comply with the parking conditions at the One Stop Shopping Centre. There are signs clearly stating that vehicles should not enter the bus Interchange at any time, including two No Entry signs, A Buses Only Instruction, and four other high visibility warning signs.

The 'crime' described is by no stretch of the imagination 'parking' so they cannot invoke POFA 2012 in order to claim keeper liability. Here is the very first paragraph of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012

Introductory
1 (1) This Schedule applies where:
(a) the driver of a vehicle is required by virtue of
a relevant obligation to pay parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on relevant land;

& further on

(2) The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles (when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).

HO87

The appeal letter I drew up for another poster may be read here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/65522344#Comment_65522344

For those who find following links too tiresome here is what I wrote:

Defence Systems Ltd
Blahblahblah
Chester

Dear Sirs

Re. Notice To Owner, dated XX/1/2014

I refer to the above Notice and for the avoidance of doubt I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. As the registered keeper I wish to appeal the issue of it on the following grounds:

1. The alleged location is not "relevant land" within the terms of the Protection of Freedoms Act.
2. The occurrence alleged is not a "parking event" within the terms of Protection of Freedoms Act.
3. The Notice to Owner was served outside the statutory timescale required by the Protection of Freedoms Act.
4. Defence Systems Ltd has no authority or lacks suffiicient authority to issue charges in relation to alleged occurrences.
5. Defence Systems Ltd signage or the signage they are intending to rely upon in this case is deficient in the sense that there are insufficient signs to be seen by motorists when entering the area and that in any event the signage is incapable of establishing the basis of a contract.
6. The charge Defence Systems Ltd are seeking to levy does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of their loss or that of their principal.
7. If, in the alternative, it is Defence Systems Ltd case that what they are seeking to enforce is a core contractual term then it is clear that the intention of such a term is to deter specified conduct and that the charge is therefore a penalty masquerading as a charge. Contractual penalties are not enforceable at law.
8. The existence of a contract between the driver at the time and Defence Systems Ltd is in all events denied.

On the basis of the foregoing I invite you to immediately withdraw your charge or promptly issue a POPLA appeal reference in order that I may make further representations to them.

Please Note: I give you due notice that if you do not withdraw this matter forthwith but choose to pursue it further then I will hold you liable for the costs I incur in researching and preparing my appeal to POPLA, dealing with and responding to any further correspondence from you, your agents or assigns and any future proceedings you may issue. Such costs may include (but are not limited to) my time (at the court approved rate of £18 per hour), my travel expenses, photography, photocopying and postage and such other expenses as may reasonably be occasioned. These charges become payable on presentation of my invoice. The acceptance of these terms will be determined by performance.

If you have any doubt as to your legal position you are advised to seek independent guidance.

Yours faithfully

SummerTime

Edit: To clarify the location in question was the One Stop Centre, Perry Barr, Birmingham. I was going to post a link to the signs shown in GSV only to realise that the image was captured in 2008 and might just be a tad out-of-date.

Umkomaas

They have provided me with a quote verification number to appeal with POPLA.

And surely they must know, if they have even half a brain cell between them, that given the quality of the initial appeal, the POPLA one is going to be of similar ilk, they're going to have no chance, lose and pay £27 for the pleasure.

So, OP, get on with your POPLA appeal draft (for critique here before submitting) is number one on your 'to do' list.

But number 2 on that list will produce a greater prize if won, and that is the action advised by bazster and supported by nigelbb's subsequent post (both are highly knowledgeable and trusted regulars on this and PePiPoo forums).

AS_Textiles

I am just finishing off my POPLA appeal. Thank you all so much.

I have a quick question for the knowledgeable members on here.

If there was a parking incident then what is the deadline the "Parking Agencies" can issue a PCN?

In my case I believe there was a parking violation, but they issued a PCN for "accessing a no entry zone". So I will be appealing against this but what if they prove that there was also a parking violation?

They have provided three pictures of me entering a no access zone. Not a single picture of me parked anywhere.

Thank you

Dee140157

If it was on the same day I suspect you would have heard by now. But just wait for a NTK and use a standard appeal of it does arrive. You will win at second stage POPLA

Various time limits are explained in the NEWBIES thread. If it breaches them you have a further reason for appeal.

pvt

nigelbb wrote: »

The 'crime' described is by no stretch of the imagination 'parking'

Absolutely. And can the keeper appeal to POPLA, given that POPLA is: "Parking on Private Land Appeals".

We're getting to the point where Tesco will be issuing customers with a £100 trolley misuse charge for pushing their trolleys the wrong way along a one way isle!

AS_Textiles

UPDATE - 23/07/2014

Have received an email from POPLA today informing me that the PCN has been cancelled.

Thank you everyone for their advice and help.

These guys have wasted a lot of my time and caused me sufficient distress over this period. I will also be writing to BPA to complain about this request their immediate removal as a member for sending fraudulent notices.

If anyone has anyother advise, kindly do let me know. Main aim is to ensure this never happens to anyone else.