Planning Permission? - replacement fence (Wales)

blueberrypie

During the gales in Wales this winter, the fence at the front of our property was blown down and smashed. We replaced the fence, but have now had a letter from the Planning Department telling us we need planning permission.

As far as I can tell, the argument in favour of it needing planning permission is that it runs alongside a footpath beside a public road and is 6 ft high. But there has been a similar fence there since the mid-1990s (and maybe much earlier - that's just as far back as we know).

I think it's very unlikely that anyone has actually complained - we are on good terms with the neighbours on both sides and the front gardens are very long so the fence is nowhere near anyone's house. In front of the fence is a wide footpath followed by a wide road followed by a high trees, some undeveloped land and then a housing estate, so there's nobody "across the road" or overlooking the fence in any way. We replaced the fence once before (about 2009) and there were no problems then.

Having done some reading this morning, it seems to me that it boils down to the interpretation of "new" - is a like-for-like fence of the same height considered "new" development? If so, the councils are onto a nice little earner when there's stormy weather when lots of people have to replace their fences!

Any advice? Thanks in advance.

Horseunderwater

Go to the councils web site & look up their planning laws. Things may have changed since 2009.

cyclonebri1

From Northampton Fencing Contractors Jan this year, just the 1stgoogle result I got;

Fencing Laws & Boundaries
It is always prudent to consult your neighbours before you construct any fencing, on certain sites you will also need to consult your local authority's building control department for permission according to planning rules: these govern the size and appearance of construction and their effect on, for example, neighbouring gardens and adjoining footpaths.

Structures that front a boundary on a road must conform to building regulations, especially with regard to safety. Planning permission may need to be granted. Bear in mind the following points about gates, walls and fences: They should not be more than 2m (6'6") high, and should not be more than 1m (3'3") high if they adjoin a highway or the footpath of such a highway.

In most instances permission will not be needed if you are replacing like for like.

Disgusting if the council do require planning, but it looks like you certainly need building regs, bummer.
I'd have done like you and simply replaced it if it's any consolation.

Tell them you want to take down the fence and concrete the garden for parking, that may change their viewpoint.;);)

2013yearofthehouse

The planning portal:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/fenceswallsgates/

Says "You will not need to apply for planning permission to take down a fence, wall,or gate, or to alter, maintain or improve an existing fence, wall or gate (no matter how high) if you don't increase its height."

So bit ambiguous as it doesn't specifically say "replace" (but since you can alter or improve, I would like to think it's open to interpretation )

I'm sure I've seen threads on here before where someone has shown the council old photos (if the house or one nearby has sold sometimes photos, with proof of date taken, remain on property websites - even google maps if you don't have any of your own or can't prove the date - the further back you can go the better I would think) to prove it's a like-for-like replacement (or even improvement) and persuaded them it's fine without the further need for planning permission - worth a try

Doozergirl

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

From Northampton Fencing Contractors Jan this year, just the 1stgoogle result I got;

Fencing Laws & Boundaries
It is always prudent to consult your neighbours before you construct any fencing, on certain sites you will also need to consult your local authority's building control department for permission according to planning rules: these govern the size and appearance of construction and their effect on, for example, neighbouring gardens and adjoining footpaths.

Structures that front a boundary on a road must conform to building regulations, especially with regard to safety. Planning permission may need to be granted. Bear in mind the following points about gates, walls and fences: They should not be more than 2m (6'6") high, and should not be more than 1m (3'3") high if they adjoin a highway or the footpath of such a highway.

In most instances permission will not be needed if you are replacing like for like.

Disgusting if the council do require planning, but it looks like you certainly need building regs, bummer.
I'd have done like you and simply replaced it if it's any consolation.

Tell them you want to take down the fence and concrete the garden for parking, that may change their viewpoint.;);)

Where did they interpret building regs from? You definitely don't need building regs for a fence, ever. I don't think a Fencing Contractor is the best place for advice on planning! Their wording is completely wrong - they've interpreted Building Control as the same thing as the Planning department. An easy mistake - for a layperson!!

My understanding has always been for planning that if you replace like for like, they can't do anything about it. Have you got any family photos that feature the fence? I'm surprised they haven't got better things to do. Ask an officer to come out and see you.

blueberrypie

Thanks for the replies.

I think the ambiguity is the problem - there seems to be no clear line when something stops being maintained/improved and starts being "new"!

I have photos from google streetview going back to 2008, there might be older photos than that somewhere. It does seem that "like-for-like" is the best argument I can use, although if I could find anything that gave legal weight to that, I'd be more confident.

If anyone has anything stronger I can use, I'd appreciate it.

Have emailed the planners but can't meet face-to-face as we're currently living elsewhere.

cyclonebri1

Doozergirl wrote: »

Where did they interpret building regs from? You definitely don't need building regs for a fence, ever. I don't think a Fencing Contractor is the best place for advice on planning! Their wording is completely wrong - they've interpreted Building Control as the same thing as the Planning department. An easy mistake - for a layperson!!

My understanding has always been for planning that if you replace like for like, they can't do anything about it. Have you got any family photos that feature the fence? I'm surprised they haven't got better things to do. Ask an officer to come out and see you.

I'm in the dark here, just a google shot, to be honest it all seems wrong to me.

Google earth maybe the OP's best friend here.??