Selling your house - would you inform buyers of a serious issue that could be hidden?

sleepymans

Hi
I dont see your situation strictly Yes or No.

I had a similar situation in the past. A long-standing structural issue came to light on a house after I bought it. I had paid for a survey but being rather naieve when I paid for the survey the small print basically limited the surveyor's report to what he could see without lifting carpet, moving curtains or furniture or looking very carefully at all!! (This was over a decade ago)

So I had no possibility of any recompense or remedy.

What I did do was have a structural engineers report prepared which enabled me to understand exactly what the problem was. I was lucky in that over the course of the time I owned the house, property prices rose sharply and although I had to accept the house would never be worth what a similar "sound" house was worth, it did double in value and so I focussed on that rather than a theoretical "loss".

When I wanted to sell the house I engaged the local EA with the best reputation and followed his advice on pricing it correctly for its likely market.

I gave him a copy of the structural engineers report to show to any prospective bidders. It did take longer than other houses to sell but eventually it was sold for an agreeable price to both parties and no-one was deceived. Doing it that way meant there were no timewasters nor wasted costs on either side from transactions falling through.

Being insomniac in any case, I can well do without worrying about a "knock on the door" and my conscience is clear.

Maybe I am an :A!!

I know it is hugely worrying when you are in the middle of it, all you can do is hang on in there, because it will all be alright in the end.

lessonlearned

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Actually, one of my concerns as well would be how to insure a house that close to a stream that it was literally sitting on it. My mind was really boggling with how it would be possible to answer "Is there a watercourse within 200 metres?" with "Errr...yep....there's one not even 1 inch away".

LessonLearned
I've seen a building that had a stream underneath it sold before now. The developer that bought it demolished it and only then found out about the stream underneath it. I'm told they were one very unhappy bunny and the whole development took months longer than they had anticipated it would.

The thing was that friends of mine live very nearby and they hadn't the foggiest idea about it either and I don't think anyone did and hence an insurance company would probably not have noticed either. Now thinking "Darn, I used to visit with the owner of one of the houses built on that site and didn't think to ask them ever whether they were aware of it or no". From looking at the redeveloped site, no-one would have the faintest idea either. Having said that, I never saw any evidence of damp in that house, but OP's is a very different kettle of fish.

All you have to do is go to the Enviromental Agency website, type in the postcode and it will show you in great detail where all the water courses are, previous flood events etc.

This is one of the checks that insurance company underwriters do when assessing risk.

Any property which is within close proximity to water courses will automatically be flagged up for further investigation. An Enviromental Search should also highlight any potential issues or risk factors.

I suppose it is entirely possible that water courses, water tables can change over time. Mining, tree removal etc will all affect water tables.

Certain areas of our city used to be very flood prone. My eldest son bought a property approx 400 metres from the river on the edge of the flood zone. His insurance premiums have factored this in. A few streets away and the properties are uninsurable despite no significant flood events for decades.

We had a "50 year event" in 1965, since then nothing. The city corporation then diverted the river and built new flood defences. So far these have held. I did worry a bit with last winters rains so I went and bought a load of sandbags and registered with the website for flood warnings.

This year we shall be purchasing a small pump for the cellar and will be fitting "flood angels" just in case. About £200 all in.

Our city is currently working on a 20 year project to further improve flood defences.

Last year I was tempted by a very pretty cottage in a small village south of the city until until I checked with the Enviromental agency and discovered it's history of flooding. I also discovered that the village lies within an area which stands at the confluence of 3 rivers. I decided it was a risk I was not prepared to take!!!

I have to confess to being at a loss to understand how a property can be built on top of a stream and no-one professes to know anything about it. Perhaps the route of the stream has changed over time???

I can see that it must be a great worry for JAS. I can fully understand his anxiety. Whether or not he can successfully claim recompense is a moot point. He might well have a judgement in his favour, getting any financial redress might be another matter.

JAS - I just hope you can resolve this somehow. I'm sure that there will be an engineering solution but I doubt that it will be easy or cheap.

moneyistooshorttomention

Yes i'd inform them, i'm a little angel.

I think the answer to the building that had been built on a stream is that the area concerned is over 200 years old and I guess accurate records don't go that far back. I lived in the area myself (but a "newer" bit and higher up) and I didn't know about this.

When my friends mentioned it, I checked out the type of obscure local history book that most people wouldn't read anyway and found mention of there had been a stream in that sort of vicinity centuries ago, but didn't say exactly where or that buildings had subsequently been put up over it.

Guessing it was a pretty small stream and some big foundations had been put under that building and hence why the developer only found out when he demolished that building? I think the first he knew of it, as I recall, was wondering why on earth the ground was so wet underneath this demolished building once it had come down.

lessonlearned

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

I think the first he knew of it, as I recall, was wondering why on earth the ground was so wet underneath this demolished building once it had come down.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Bit of a giveaway…..

Fascinating stuff - I love trawling through old historical data.

BTW - apropos of nothing and talking of history.

After Sunday's win our local football team is off to Wembley, Wahoo:D.

If they are promoted to the premier league it will most likely bring a huge economic boost to our city.

I kid you not.

I've noticed that every time we are in the premier league our city booms again. When we are relegated the local economy seems to become depressed.

Soooo - keeping fingers crossed.

JustAnotherSaver

Wow, you lot really need to give me a chance to reply :rotfl:Didn't think it'd generate this much positive interest to be honest. I'll do 2 replies per post as since when i reply to everyones post in one it's said there's too much to read

** I should point out, as i don't know what images are in peoples heads. When i say stream i don't mean fast flowing water. It's under the foundations & it slowly comes to the surface.

** We have checked maps from before any houses were even built on this plot. There was no stream even back then. I contacted the council who said there are many naturally occurring springs in the area.

Doozergirl wrote: »

It costs money to move house. May as well fix the problem- what I would do.

Thank you for being on the same planet!! That isn't a dig to any other MSEer btw.
I talk about it at work & workmates just laugh & say i should "sell & do one". Yes, but it's easy saying things isn't it. Doing them is different. Plus we'd take a huge loss. Plus there's nothing else on the market. Plus we'd still need to pay a mortgage. Plus house prices are going up. So it's easy for them (workmates) to give a throwaway remark of sell it without thinking about it.

If it wasn't for the living room & that damp then it'd be a lovely house.

You really need an independent specialist to advise you. There are so many wrong tradesmen and questions a guy can ask a forum before looking for the answer in the right place.

A few problems with this one...
1) It's finding the correct man/men for the job. I seem a bit ignorant at this but to me there's builders, joiners, electricians, plumbers etc. In reality all this branches off into scientific departments. Professors of this. Surveyors of that. Analysts of the other. It's know who to turn to & we don't know.
2) I enjoy discussing on forums. You guys have nothing to sell me, therefore to me your help is honest & without shortcuts. Here & there incorrect advice will sometimes be given but those giving correct advice will often pick this out & give reasons why. No problems here you say.
Problem lays when i ask 'too many' questions. I like to learn & fully understand, but unfortunately when it isn't at some peoples required speed of learning they start becoming abusive on the forum & it honestly leaves me feeling like why should i bother with MSE as it's the only forum i have this grief on.
Then there are the helpful ones & so i carry on asking

lessonlearned wrote: »

the insurance companies were aware of nearby water courses, requested more information and thus alerted me to any potential issues. The close proximity of water courses were also flagged up on the enviromental searches.

(This enabled me to do my own further research and make informed decisions).

Even if you use a search engine for your insurance quote a stream under your house should have come up with a red flag and a request from your insurer for further information. This alone would have alerted you.

As said, even when you go back to before anything was built on this plot, the nearest mapped water way was 0.5 mile away. It doesn't detail the one through our area.
As for on our street, it only affects a small few houses in the centre of a dip. Out of 30 or so houses on our street only 4-8 are affected.

JustAnotherSaver

Running_Horse wrote: »

You did have a survey, didn't you? A homebuyers report doesn't count.

No, homebuyers report only i'm afraid. Expensive lesson learned.

Davesnave wrote: »

You have read all of this thread, haven't you?

Putting this through the courts could take years, with no certainty of outcome, especially if it's £££ you're after. Winning is one thing and receiving recompense is another.

How much do you value your life and mental-well being? Can you even put a price on these things?

Personally, I wouldn't waste money on legals. I'd spend my energies and available cash on solving the problem. or moving on from it, depending upon which is likely most expensive

No one here can tell you what your moral duty is as regards re-advertising the house. Say you sold it on without revealing the problem; would you really be free from worry then?

I think your post is probably the most valuable on this thread from a personal P.O.V.

From day 1 i've not been convinced about pursuing the previous owners. I know the solicitor said we have a case but i was never fully convinced. Even though i thought we maybe had a chance against the surveyor i wasn't convinced fully.

Your post spells out my concerns & nail & head is the phrase here. I don't think i will be bothering with it. My wife now agrees.

HOWEVER...

The plasterers are a different matter. I know the same rules apply, but these guys came in to fix the damp issue, said they would, took £1600 from us & it's made it worse. The very things that they said wouldn't happen have happened & now they wont reply. They haven't just refused to reply but they've replied once to say they're flexible & want to come out to repair but THEN they've ignored us totally despite numerous attempts to contact.

So while i wont be pursuing the previous owners, i will be pursuing the plasterers. The mould now growing on the walls is horrible (wasn't mouldy before).

captainhindsight wrote: »

It is pretty difficult to prove that the previous owner knew about the problem,

The solicitor thought not since the pump kicks in every day or so & it's easily heard. Still, i wont be going down this road now after much thought & discussion.

JustAnotherSaver

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Errrm...none of us can tell since we aren't in your position. I tend to think that, with such a bad situation, I'd probably have to tell and resign myself to the fact that I might well have to change my mind about moving.

Indeed. Looking at the history of the house, there hasn't been many owners. Since 1932 i think we're the 4th.

Forgetting budget for a minute-

New floor - new floorboards, new joists protected from damp with appropriate DPC
DPC injection into the walls
tanking from head to toe on the walls
Then the 'topping' is up for debate. A clear plastic membrane would be preferred as damp can't penetrate, but it'll condensate behind & run onto the skirting/joists/floor, so then there's batten & board (some say insulated, some say foil).

I think this would be the best/only approach. If this was done the room & then house would actually be ok.

I guess the thing is what sort of level of price did you pay for the house? If you paid what seemed to be an absolute bargain price and were wondering why ...then you have just found out...

It was up for quite an amount but got dropped. We bought it for a price typical of the area. Not expensive, not cheap. They gave the hard haggle & we could only drop them £3k.

and the other side of that coin would be to sell the house on at an absolutely bargain price.

I think that would be our only option unfortunately. How much that would be worries me, but i don't intend on selling any time soon.

onlyroz wrote: »

How much would it cost to properly fix the issue?

How long is a piece of string i'm afraid. In other words i don't know.

There is no 'fix', there is only managing. You can only fix if you remove the water which can't be done, so you can only manage it.

I priced materials for a new floor (just the wood) which came to about £350. That's without DPC, sand, cement, joist hangers if they use them, boron & the all important labour cost.

Then if the floor is up we may as well get a new sump pump installed at the same time for piece of mind since we've no idea how old the current one is - so buying that can be £250-£350 then installing. I know you can get them for £50 but i don't want £50 worth of 'quality'.

Then if you're going 'all out', there's chemical injection on a room that is 6.5mtr-x-3.5mtr. The party wall is the worst but i wonder how many walls we would/should get done.
Then there is the tanking.
Then there's the surface finishing, be it plaster or battening & boarding. Skimming the room alone cost us about £1000 (there was chipping plaster off (or some of it) in that too.

So i'm not sure of exact total cost. Under £10k i'd hope & that's just managing. The chemical injection wont last forever.

But as we're early 30s now & the way my luck with health is & my families history & then the wife, i'd say i'd be happy with things lasting 50 years.

JustAnotherSaver

Running_Horse wrote: »

Why did they start a whole discussion implying the previous owners are at fault, when the fault is clearly theirs for not having a proper survey?

The discussion was actually to see how honest others are in general. While not scientific, it was just 'for fun' or whatever you'd call it - just to see what the general feel would be - say something or keep quiet.

sleepymans wrote: »

Hi
I dont see your situation strictly Yes or No.

I had a similar situation in the past. A long-standing structural issue came to light on a house after I bought it. I had paid for a survey but being rather naieve when I paid for the survey the small print basically limited the surveyor's report to what he could see without lifting carpet, moving curtains or furniture or looking very carefully at all!! (This was over a decade ago)

So I had no possibility of any recompense or remedy.

What I did do was have a structural engineers report prepared which enabled me to understand exactly what the problem was. I was lucky in that over the course of the time I owned the house, property prices rose sharply and although I had to accept the house would never be worth what a similar "sound" house was worth, it did double in value and so I focussed on that rather than a theoretical "loss".

When I wanted to sell the house I engaged the local EA with the best reputation and followed his advice on pricing it correctly for its likely market.

I gave him a copy of the structural engineers report to show to any prospective bidders. It did take longer than other houses to sell but eventually it was sold for an agreeable price to both parties and no-one was deceived. Doing it that way meant there were no timewasters nor wasted costs on either side from transactions falling through.

Being insomniac in any case, I can well do without worrying about a "knock on the door" and my conscience is clear.

Maybe I am an :A!!

I know it is hugely worrying when you are in the middle of it, all you can do is hang on in there, because it will all be alright in the end.

And this is exactly it. It's what we'll be doing. I'm glad it worked out for you in the end.

The way i see it, even wrecks sell. Maybe not for the price you'd like, but they sell.

And our house is in the most sought after area in the city which helps.

JustAnotherSaver

And for those who are wondering what i'm referring to when i'm talking about solicitors & pursuing the plasterers....

This is what they said wouldn't happen:

lessonlearned

I didn't mention this before because I wanted to make sure I had my facts right first, so I double checked with my father.

My parents' cottage was built over some sort of stream or natural spring which runs into a brook which runs alongside the road on the opposite side to may parents' house. The cottage has two gardens - one which is part of the cottage environs and an allotment garden which is over the road (next to the brook). The allotment floods most winters, the cottage garden doesn't, and the house had no visible signs of damp until very recently. The cottage garden has a very slight slope away from the house and down towards the road.

There has been no sign of any damp until quite recently - perhaps because of that slight incline???

The damp has been investigated and it is penetrating damp caused by crumbling mortar rather than rising damp caused by the stream/spring. Tired mortar can be easily replaced.

The cottage, which is the second in a row of 6, was originally part of an old coaching inn - my parent's dwelling being where the horses were stabled. The building itself is over 400 years old. At some point during the 19th century it was converted into cottages by the local squire as dwellings for the mine workers who were digging coal up on his land.

The conversion was of course done on the cheap, with quarry tiles laid on bare earth - scarcely any foundations - as was the custom in the "olden days".

At some point the quarry tiles were ripped up and replaced with concrete. This was decades ago and the concrete shows no sign of deterioration or evidence of damp.

I think your solution may lie somewhere along those lines - i.e. replacing timber floors and joists with concrete. However I am no expert.

As a matter of interest have any of your neighbours had any problems. Secondly does the ground slope "away" from the house at all. Engineering a slope might help with drainage and alleviate the problem.

As to which "expert" to call in - I would think a structural engineer would be your first port of call.

PS Just edited to ask because the thought has only just occurred to me.

If this is a "naturally occurring spring" rather than a stream - could it be a new phenomena due to the unnaturally high water tables at present.

The last couple of years has seen unprecedented flooding as you know - could this have swelled the spring.

Another possible cause - has anyone removed any trees within the vicinity of your house. Trees are incredibly thirsty and removing them can alter the water table, especially if you remove a few in one go.

I mentioned that my son's property is within 400 metres of the river. His garden is very wet at the moment. We need to remove a bank of overgrown conifers, plus a number of rotten and/or overgrown trees. Rather than removing them in one go and risking soil heave or flooding we are gradually reducing their size and we will remove them one at a time.