Selling your house - would you inform buyers of a serious issue that could be hidden?

moneyistooshorttomention

Yes i'd inform them, i'm a little angel.

Good thoughts re the water table aspect there.

I would guess, however, that this problem has existed for some time because of the mention of the pump. We don't know at what point the pump got installed, but I'm guessing its some years old, indicating the problem has been there some time.

I'm now wondering actually where this pump drains off to? Is wherever it drains too clear or has it maybe got blocked-up (eg with neighbours tree roots)?

lessonlearned

Silly me - forgot about the existing pump. So yes a long standing problem.

Davesnave

Forget that, i want my house sold. Keep quiet!

What a lot of wonderfully honest people you have attracted to your poll! :rotfl:

I'm not among them, but for me, the question isn't theoretical.

I didn't reveal a structural problem with my last house at the time of sale. I also knew a surveyor would not find it.

I still think I'm quite a decent sort of chap!

mufi

Davesnave wrote: »

What a lot of wonderfully honest people you have attracted to your poll! :rotfl:

I'm not among them, but for me, the question isn't theoretical.

I didn't reveal a structural problem with my last house at the time of sale. I also knew a surveyor would not find it.

I still think I'm quite a decent sort of chap!

Quite! We seem to have moved on quite a way from the old approach of answering questions honestly without actually volunteering
information, which has worked for quite some time. Get a structural survey then, if a problem arises, argue it with the surveyor.


My purchasers didn't have a survey, and tried to sue me for something I didn't actually know about, so perhaps I'm a little biased. If the OP is interested, I imagine their solicitor told them they had a good case too...

DaftyDuck

Yes i'd inform them, i'm a little angel.

Returning slightly to the OP's original question for a start, meandering, then returning to his case,..... I'm definitely amongst the "tell all, volunteer it if it's a major defect", but for two reasons. Firstly, I'd certainly expect a survey on a house I sold - expect that is; there may not be - and I'd expect most surveyors to pick up large defects like the above. I'd certainly expect a buyer who went in with eyes wide open and previous experience to either notice it, or ask the right question that would force me to lie if I wished to hide it.

Two recent examples for you, both timber-framed houses in the Lavenham area. I thought about buying a large house in Glemsford, on Tye Green. Those who wish will be able to search it out. Magnificent house, worth around £650,000 - 690,000. Beautifully presented, new heating, electrics, full interior decoration in perfect condition, and shown as well as any house (fan-fold towels on the besd, pot-pourri on the windowsills, fresh flowers in each room) by a lady who'd done it up to make a profit. Two minor problems: the roof was shot to hell and back, and the sole plate (think ground-level rib of wood that holds it all up and together, if you don't know what it is) was rotten as hell. As I understood it, she'd had multiple offers go through to survey, all of which collapsed. It's a Grade II listed building, so work like that would be expensive, messy, long and difficult.

Her investment on the interior attracted many, many people, and loads of offers. However, the defects were not hidden enough to bypass even the most cursory survey - even a mortgage surveying idiot would have spotted the roof defect, and that was a £30,000 bill to sort. Of course, the mess of having a roof redone and the soleplate replaced would simply have undone almost all the pretty decor she'd invested in. I did offer her more than she eventually sold it for, but she refused, thinking she'd get closer to her asking price... She ended up forced to sell, at £450,000, and probably lost around £50 - 60,000 on what she'd invested. Had she spent most of her original investment money on the roof and soleplate, and just spent a couple of thousand on the interior, she'd have got closer to £600,000 and made a profit of £50,000 or so.

The opposite case was on a house I bought in Lavenham itself, where it was sold in appalling condition, openly & honestly. Probate sale after long-term resident (~50 years plus) died. I went through it myself with a fine-toothed comb, used a surveyor I'd used before on timber-framed property, had the conservation officer round to discuss what I was likely allowed to rip apart and what had to stay (I can see MoneyITSTM having a fit at the idea of all these visits to her house prior to the "normal and expected period for exchange" or summat... it was all done & dusted within ten days of the offer being made, in fact...).

I "did it up" and sold it on... It too had a "defective " roof, and just as expensive... all the cruck beams on one side were cheaply & poorly replaced in the 1900's and were going to need replacing in the next 2- 20 years at a cost of around £20,000. Thing is, when they began to fail, they'd do so gracefully and slowly. I say 2 - 20 years, but it could be 200 years... a surveyor may well have found it, and written damning things that'd make any buyer cringe and run for the Suffolk hills (!). I told my buyers all about it - showed some of them as well, and explained why the failure would be graceful, gave them the name of the roofer I'd use myself. I also pointed out that, when replacing them if they'd failed, they'd be allowed to lift the roof and make use of three additional attic rooms with a stunning view, permission that wouldn't be granted for an alteration, but would for a repair. Probably. ... and the letter form the Conservation officer who also said it would... probably... (work calls, edit in a mo)

Everything was open and above board. The family that bought it did contact the roofer (no idea about conservation officer, but probably him too), they did inform their surveyor, who worked for the same group as mine, so they either spoke, or shared the same views on timber-framed oldies, and the sale went through without a hitch. I strongly suspect those beams may fail sooner rather than later... and are being actively encouraged to do so.

Glemsford house was on the market for 2½ years with a huge loss, I bought this one, renovated it and sold it on in under 3 at a profit. So, honesty pays. It's not just honest, it tends to cost less in the long run.

So, JAS, yes, I'd either fix the problem, or I'd be completely honest about what the problem was. I'd also tend to offer a reliable, costed solution when I sold it.

So, ... I have seen your other threads, and commented on one or two, but one thought strikes me about your difficulty in finding a builder who can deal with this.... are you living in an area where this is not a problem locally, so nobody knows how to deal with it? The above houses were near Sudbury, Suffolk, and I didn't buy into the old town there because of the flood risk. Most old-town-house cellars were damp, many had sump pumps, all were at risk from the river when it flooded. So, I've just done a few searches for builders there, adding in sump pump, tanking, damp and the like, and several specialists turn up. So, without exact street, number and grid reference, where are you, and where local to you floods/has a high water table? Can you look in that area for a builder experienced in dealing with real water under a building rather than damp-proofing bods?

Your situation really isn't that unusual (although I can believe the stress of finding it unexpectedly is terrible), and it's not an insoluble difficulty to resolve it , and resolve it for good. I'm not even sure it's likely to be that costly to resolve (although obviously that'll depend on the house, and size of stream it's over).

Anyway, vote honesty, declare major defects, sleep at night.

(Mind you, I'd cover up a small hole in a wall with a painting, and stick a rug over a marked carpet any day )

moneyistooshorttomention

Yes i'd inform them, i'm a little angel.

Davesnave wrote: »

What a lot of wonderfully honest people you have attracted to your poll! :rotfl:

I'm not among them, but for me, the question isn't theoretical.

I didn't reveal a structural problem with my last house at the time of sale. I also knew a surveyor would not find it.

I still think I'm quite a decent sort of chap!

My last house had a problem that was almost certainly going to be major at some future date to extent of "Who in their right mind would want the place?". I made sure it was dealt with very firmly once and for all before I put the place on the market. Fortunately it was one that didn't cost much to sort out (at least not to me:D, with it being a problem that originated outside my own "territory").

Davesnave

Forget that, i want my house sold. Keep quiet!

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

My last house had a problem that was almost certainly going to be major at some future date to extent of "Who in their right mind would want the place?". I made sure it was dealt with very firmly once and for all before I put the place on the market. Fortunately it was one that didn't cost much to sort out (at least not to me:D, with it being a problem that originated outside my own "territory").

That's surely different from the sort of problems we're discussing, where some considerable cost would fall on the vendor.

silvercar

We nearly bought a house with a hidden problem, but we were gazumped and lost the house.

The house had a 2 story rear extension. We had a survey and everything was fine. Then we got gazumped and ended up selling our survey on to the new buyers. A couple of years later I bumped into a friend of a friend and told her the story. She had had a survey on the house and pulled out. She asked me what we had planned for the problem. It turned out that the extension was pulling away from the house and a crack was developing in the main bedroom between the extension wall and the original wall. We and our surveyor never spotted it because the owners had put built in cupboards with backs along that wall. (Outside there had been another bit of extension built so that wall was hidden - difficult to explain the layout.)

Just rewards for gazumping. :evil grin:

JustAnotherSaver

lessonlearned wrote: »

I think your solution may lie somewhere along those lines - i.e. replacing timber floors and joists with concrete. However I am no expert.

It would solve 1 problem but create another.

Nothing will stop that water entering the subfloor. If you totally fill it & concrete it then the water has to go somewhere. Where then would be the worrying question & would you be left thinking "wish i'd left it as it was better than it is now".
As such, concrete beams would stop the case of rotting beams, but we would need access to the subfloor in the event of a sump pump failure for example. The water pipes & some electrical lines are down there too.

As a matter of interest have any of your neighbours had any problems. Secondly does the ground slope "away" from the house at all. Engineering a slope might help with drainage and alleviate the problem.

Our direct neighbour to our left has the problem (but WORSE!). Apparently the 2 houses opposite have it with the one opposite our bad neighbour actually going through his floor (but then he was apparently a 20stone chap) as it was rotten.
Our neighbour to our right has no problem. She's lovely & has been there for about a million years & told us that before our back garden was laid in hardcore & flagged, the grass would become so boggy.

Another lesson learned - talk to the neighbours beforehand.

Oh sorry almost forgot - the slope is towards our house from the road but there's no way of raising this really unless you have it level with our window. :rotfl:

If this is a "naturally occurring spring" rather than a stream

That's the thing - it's been called many things by many people. Spring. Stream. River. Culvert. Lake. Swimming Pool. No idea what it really is.

Another possible cause - has anyone removed any trees within the vicinity of your house.

Aside from when the whole land got levelled for housing in the 1930s, nope.

we will remove them one at a time.

Wouldn't this have the same end result as removing them all at once though? I'm no plant expert so maybe that's me being dim.

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Good thoughts re the water table aspect there.

I would guess, however, that this problem has existed for some time because of the mention of the pump. We don't know at what point the pump got installed, but I'm guessing its some years old, indicating the problem has been there some time.

I'm now wondering actually where this pump drains off to? Is wherever it drains too clear or has it maybe got blocked-up (eg with neighbours tree roots)?

Correct - the issue has been there for many years according to our neighbour. At the very least the early 90s & likely further back.

The pump drains off into the main drain. Thinking about it, i wonder where our neighbours drains off to as it isn't into the same drain as ours (yes, they have a sump pump fitted too apparently).

JustAnotherSaver

mufi wrote: »

I imagine their solicitor told them they had a good case too...

:rotfl:Quite.

As is ay, there's only 1 winner in all of this.

There's a small part of me that is unsure about pursuing the plasterers, but then when you're talking about blank cheques i guess that's natural. Still, i'm that angry with their lies & then ignoring us when what they've done is wrong that i want to pursue it.

DaftyDuck wrote: »

So, ... I have seen your other threads, and commented on one or two, but one thought strikes me about your difficulty in finding a builder who can deal with this.... are you living in an area where this is not a problem locally, so nobody knows how to deal with it?

First off thanks for taking the time with your lengthy post. An interesting read and no that isn't a sarcastic remark.

To answer your question, there are only a handful of houses on our street affected depending on the path the river/stream/culvert/WATER takes. We live on a cul-de-sac which if you exaggerate things is in a U shape. We're not quite bang centre but we're just off to one side. Houses in the dip are affected - like i say, our neighbour to our right isn't.
Then when you go on the street behind us & the street in front of us - there's selected houses that are the same.


One thing i 'love' about this is how 'everyone' seemed to know that there was a water way passing underneath selected houses. We didn't. Not only that but as i say, maps from before the house was built don't show it. House was built in 1932 & maps from the 1800s don't show it. They detail a beck that is 0.5 mile away which apparently doesn't pass anywhere near us, but it doesn't detail the one causing us problem. I find that quite odd.
If the 1800s maps had detailed it, then we could've been like oh ok this is the path it takes & we've been built on top of a river - but there's nothing.

So, without exact street, number and grid reference, where are you, and where local to you floods/has a high water table?

I'm in the north west & sorry but i don't know where 'floods' (i use quotations because we're back to that 7.1 of that form now & an individuals definition of flooding). But genuinely i don't know where actually floods. We're quite fortunate around here. When you see it on the news everyone getting flooded, we don't. As for the water table, sorry i don't know. I was told that we could get someone to drill down to see but with limited funds already we've decided to channel these into getting things put right rather than trial & error testing.

Can you look in that area for a builder experienced in dealing with real water under a building rather than damp-proofing bods?

I work for a builders merchant so have access to many tradesmen. I've tried getting a few out who say they've dealt with such things but they simply don't phone or turn up. Some have, but they've been for other things & not this damp issue.
There is a company local who do damp injecting. I'm thinking of giving them a call as well as getting a rep out from sovereign chemicals. I'm thinking an approach of injection AND tanking AND some sort of batten system might be the best shot.

Your situation really isn't that unusual (although I can believe the stress of finding it unexpectedly is terrible),

Indeed it is.

What makes it worse is when you pay money you worked long & hard for (since we're not on megabucks) to get a job done & the people basically lie to you & you may as well have sent that money through the shredder. THAT is the stressful thing which is then leading to me making errors at work, trouble sleeping, trouble waking up, late for work & a short fuse even shorter.

A workmate had similar (although not a river) issues with his house & he turned really quite ill with the stress. He's warned me about where i'll end up & i try & take it on board, but he's on his own & only has himself to please. I've others to try & think of too which add to the stress.
& then there's the fact i'm a DIY dunce which doesn't help. Would be marvellous if i could do even half the jobs required by myself.