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Grant of Confirmation

edited 30 November -1 at 1:00AM in Deaths, Funerals & Probate
82 replies 39.9K views
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  • Hi NiceD, just read your post and if I can help I will, I am not a new user but prefer people not to know my original name. My husband and myself have recently been through this with my father-in-law, dealt with in Glasgow sheriff court, you docquet the will yourself on first page top of page and make sure the date signed matches the date of both c1 and c5. Anything else I can help with let me know.
  • NiceD wrote: »
    Thanks for telling me I can put "balance at date of death including interest", instead of putting separate figures for interest and capital, skintmumofone.

    I understand that the value of household items is technically meant to be the open market value of the items (ie "what they would sell for"). What I was asking is in practice what level of scrutiny do the Sheriff Court apply to this and what level of detail and proof they require. (Despite what I said above I do now see that there is a reason why even in my case they might want to scrutinise, due to the rights of family in Scotland, regardless of the will. I am in fact the only child, but I don't think there is anything in the application to let the court know this, so they need to cover themselves for future possible claims maybe.)

    Thanks also for confirming the pickiness of the Edinburgh court in general. It won't be the Edinburgh court but this unfortunately confirms what I had suspected about the process. (By the way I have gleaned most of my information so far from people asking opinions of solicitors on justanswer.com, I have no idea why there is so little information on this on the internet - presumably becaue people just give up and pay a solicitor to deal with it, or else those with estates below £35000 are handheld through it anyway.)

    I did not receive your email (personal message?), skintmumofone.



    My apologies I had started to type and my phone was playing up I had intended to go home and type something on the computer for you and unfortunately my uncle suffered a stroke so I have been in and out of the hospital for the last 3 weeks making sure he is ok. I will email you my personal email address if you still need help and can send you some styles etc. I have used Glasgow Sheriff Court a few times but would stress Edinburgh are totally different believe me I have been doing this for the last 15 years and this is the worst I have ever seen the delays. I am sure once they get through the backlog of cases it will go back to 2-3 weeks.


    Let me know if you haven't received anything.


    One other question, as there is a Will you do not have to mention the Requirements of Writing Act as this is only relevant if you are proving handwriting and using Affidavits.


    I have emailed my details and can help if you need any assistance.
    :jLiving Life to the Full :)
  • NiceDNiceD Forumite
    10 posts
    Thanks for the reply skintmumofone now received private message. I'm sorry about your uncle, hope his recovery goes well.

    I've not done it yet but am hoping to get it submitted this week.

    Thanks very much for the offer of help littlewife, most of my further questions are still above, but I realise it's a lot!

    There is something I mentioned above that I now believe is incorrect in that I thought the process was you send forms C1 and C5 and any supporting documents in and then they check them and then you go in to make an oath. I got this wrong I think - you just submit it and then they issue confirmation if it is correct or send back to you if not (this still creates a problem in my mind about what the actual date of application is if you have to submit a new C1 for instance). There is no oath in person like in England.

    I think The Requirements of Writing Act is potentially relevant in terms of the validity of the will, if the cover sheet is deemed to be a separate page (as I mentioned above) (I don't understand your statment above about this skintmumofone):
    Under the 1995 Act, to be valid as a Will, a writing must be signed at the end of the last page (subscribed) by the testator. Where a Will consists of more than one page, every page must be signed by the testator, although only the final page needs to be subscribed. The testator may sign anywhere on the other pages.

    (From the HMRC website)
  • For location if location is Glasgow you write The Sheriffdom of Glasgow and Strathkelvin, you can sign docquet ands date c1 and c5 on day you hand them in, they gave us help on writing doquet.
  • Hi I finally got this done. Thanks for the help on this forum last year :). It turned out that the staff at the Sheriff's court I went to were extremely nice and very helpful. With this in mind (that they might have been a little more willing to overlook any errors in form and procedure than others might be), I'm spending a bit of time to write up the details of my application for Grant of Confirmation and hopefully this will be a bit of use to anyone else doing this.


    A summary of the procedure is that as arranged on the telephone with the court I sent by post the undated and unsigned forms C1 and C5 and a copy of the will into the court. They checked everything and then I made an appointment to see the Sheriff to go in with the original will and at that appointment dated the forms (to the date I went in) and wrote and signed the docquet on the will (the Sheriff was willing to help with the wording). (This is as littlewife also experienced, I am not sure all courts would allow it to be done this way for estates over £35,000?)Also obviously I had to take the usual documents to prove ID on the day.



    The wording that I put in paragraph 2 of the “declaration” on page 2 of the C1 form was (That I am) “[MY NAME], daughter and executrix nominate of the late [FATHER’S NAME] conform to the will of the deceased who resided at [FATHER’S ADDRESS], dated [DATE OF WILL] which is produced herewith, docquetted and signed by me as relative hereto. The wife of the deceased, [MOTHER’S NAME], is nominated as executrix in the will, but she died on [DATE MOTHER DIED].” The court found no problem with this.




    Inventory


    After writing the heading “Estate in Scotland” in the description Column I wrote the title “Heritable Estate” then I listed the house using the wording: “[ADDRESS OF THE HOUSE INCLUDING POSTCODE]” and then “being the subjects described in the disposition by [NAMES OF PREVIOUS OWNERS] in favour of [NAMES OF MY PARENTS] recorded GRS [DISTRICT] [DATE OF RECORDING] as valued by [NAME OF SURVEYORS]”. This is probably the bit where you need to put the most attention as it may go through confirmation OK but there still might be problems in the conveyancing if you get this wrong. I would think that if you are planning to get a solictior to do the conveyancing asking them to check this wording only would be a good idea, and if they are reasonable I don't think they should charge much if any extra on top of the conveyancing. Note that in general legal terms what I put was a “conveyancing description” (albeit a short form) of the house, mostly based upon the previous disposition that conveyed the house (recorded in Sasines register). I knew I had to do this from reading textbooks on conveyancing in Scotland. Be aware that in the notes for completion of form C1 for “Heritable Estate” it says “Please list each item of heritable estate (land, houses etc) in Scotland, giving sufficient detail in the description to allow each item to be recognised as a separate part of the estate”. This is misleading to the average person and I think you really do need the “conveyancing description” so do be careful! (Perhaps things will be easier with the new system of Land Registration, I don't know.)


    I wrote a heading “Moveable Estate” in the “description column and put “Household Goods and Personal Effects” and then “value estimated by executrix” and put the total value that I had worked out from doing a real inventory and estimating the value of individual things using my own knowledge and ebay (so it was not a round figure). This was accepted by the court without issue (of course they only had a final figure they had no idea how I'd arrived at it). I didn't want a house clearance company just getting rid of everything, but that would be an alternative and their quote would give you a value to put here if your feelings are different to mine or if there might be some contention or the estate is near an IHT threshold. I also had a separate entry for Jewelery which was prepared by a professional valuer (I think perhaps I wasted money here as the valuation fee was a significant percentage of the value of the jewelery and I might have just estimated this myself and grouped it with the Household Goods and Personal Effects). The main point here is that it seems you need very little granularity in the inventory, despite that some historical Inventories for Confirmation that I've seen on the Historic Scotland website really do list every last item down to the frying pan!


    The bank accounts however were all listed separately. The account numbers were given (I wasn't too keen on doing this as it is public record but the advice I had is that the account numbers were needed) and I put “balance at date of death including interest” under each account, as advised above. This was accepted without issue by the court.




    Will and Docquet


    As discussed above, the will, made with English solicitors, was written on two sides of one sheet of paper and also an additional coversheet was attached to it. I did not take the coversheet off the will, and it was accepted without a problem.


    On the day I went in to take the will in and sign all the forms the docquet I wrote on the will (not the coversheet) was: “This is the will referred to in my Declaration of this date to the Inventory of Estate of the late [FATHER'S NAME], signed at [TOWN IN WHICH SHERIFF COURT IS IN] Sheriff Court on this date [DATE OF DECLARATION ie DATE I WENT IN]”. Then I just signed underneath this. The Sheriff was happy to advise that this wording would be fine. Whether all the concerns that I had above about the wording and placement of the date and location would be of concern in a stricter court I don't know.




    I hope this is of help to someone. If you have any questions put them here – I may check back from time to time but no promises!


    Overall the court were extremely helpful but the procedure is a total mess compared to the relatively straightforward form for probate in England (I haven't done that mind you, but have looked at the form!). It is basically achieving the same thing substantively so it shouldn't be so complicated and archaic. This procedure for applying for Grant of Confirmation should definitely be reformed in my opinion.
  • oliveoil54oliveoil54 Forumite
    289 posts
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    ✭✭
    Am trying to advise recently widowed friend on completing confirmation forms.

    We have one query, and have had conflicting advice, so would really appreciate any clarification.

    If the entire estate including the main home is willed to the surviving spouse, does the deceased 50% ownership of the property have to be declared on the form. She has been advised she doesn't need to declare it all as she believes the house just passes to her in total, and doesn't count for confirmation/probate?

    Would really appreciate a quck reply as this is all that is stopping her sending the forms off.
  • Thank you Nice D for this detailed account of your experience of applying for confirmation. It has been the most helpful thing I have found on the internet. Why something, which should be relatively straightforward to complete, is made so difficult, I don't know.
  • lisa110rrylisa110rry Forumite
    1.8K posts
    Mortgage-free Glee! Debt-free and Proud!
    NiceD, when my Mum died (March 1999) I was in a pretty bad way, very thin and nervous (had been visiting Mum in hospital every day for five and a half weeks and working full time, leaving little time for such frivolous things as eating). Mum had destroyed all her papers before she died, marriage cert, divorce decree. I knew my father was dead but only by hearsay. I could not prove I was my mother's only child. I went to Probate. The gentleman who met me listened to all this and said "does anyone object to you being granted probate"? I said no, all my living relatives are in the UK, all know I am an only child, all know my parents divorced. He replied "probate granted". I cried (dammit).
    “And all shall be well. And all shall be well. And all manner of things shall be exceeding well.”
    ― Julian of Norwich
    In other words, Don't Panic!
  • I concur with Bigbananafeet, this is a very informative thread. But I have question ..... I am preparing the C1 doc for my Father-in-law's estate. I visited the AYR sheriffs clerk office to get pointers on filling the form. As the estate is over the lower limit wher they will help ou fill it in there was a reluctance to provide any advice and that I should seek legal advice. As I had typed up the declaration and the docquet wording I was advised to make minor changes to wording which was what I wanted to know.
    HOWEVER it was mentioned that the Inventory of the Bank/BS accounts need to be listed by Country i.e. Scotland or England&Wales or Northern Ireland and suggested that I look at where the registered offices are?
    So now I am not sure how to list these, the accounts were opened in Scotland but Building Societies have head offices in England, NS&I is an arm of the treasury but office address is Scotland, oustanding Final Pension payments due from CSP Pension in England and DWP Scotland/England?

    Why does this matter we are still all part of the UK???? (until the SNP try again for independance despite us voting NO)

    Has anyone following this thread have experience of how to determine appropriate country for these types of asset?
  • toucan2k wrote: »
    I concur with Bigbananafeet, this is a very informative thread. But I have question ..... I am preparing the C1 doc for my Father-in-law's estate. I visited the AYR sheriffs clerk office to get pointers on filling the form. As the estate is over the lower limit wher they will help ou fill it in there was a reluctance to provide any advice and that I should seek legal advice. As I had typed up the declaration and the docquet wording I was advised to make minor changes to wording which was what I wanted to know.
    HOWEVER it was mentioned that the Inventory of the Bank/BS accounts need to be listed by Country i.e. Scotland or England&Wales or Northern Ireland and suggested that I look at where the registered offices are?
    So now I am not sure how to list these, the accounts were opened in Scotland but Building Societies have head offices in England, NS&I is an arm of the treasury but office address is Scotland, oustanding Final Pension payments due from CSP Pension in England and DWP Scotland/England?

    Why does this matter we are still all part of the UK???? (until the SNP try again for independance despite us voting NO)

    Has anyone following this thread have experience of how to determine appropriate country for these types of asset?
    AFAIK a Scottish will cannot deal with property outside Scotland. This has to dealt with under the legislation of the other countries.
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