Euro Car Parks already Named as driver how to edit the template?

empage

I have received a PCN (Parking Charge Notice) from Euro Car Parks for overstaying their car park at Sainsburys Darlington. They caught me on their cameras (I didn't know this at the time). I received no windscreen notice.

The ticket was originally sent to Enterprise as I had hired the car. They have told them I was the driver that day and the ticket has been reissued to me. I therefore assume that the notes about not saying who the driver was and the template letter stating that I am the registered keeper is irrelevant for me as Euro Car Parks have already been informed about who the driver was: me! And I am not the registered keeper.

I have written a letter based on a template from the MSE site and would appreciate if any feedback could be given. Is this the right route to take here? First incase this is relevant I have a summary of what happened.

FYI the story
I overstayed. I know I did, their signs are clear and say 180 mins free. I was caught by camera and had overstayed by 152 minutes. It was a genuine mistake.

My first issue is that £70 (even the reduced £40 if paid wihin 14 days) seems like a bit of high charge for overstaying in an albeit time limited free car park.

My second issue is I am on a phased return to work after being off ill for quite a while (around 8 months) as such my low hours on my phased return mean low wages for a while (my occupation health and SSP have been used up already) and I really cant afford this.

I therefore have used the template on the main site for mitigating circumstances. I wonder through if I should really be making a combination of this template and the template in the Newbies Guide? Mainly because this template seems a bit ‘nice’ in comparison.



It is the fact that I have already been named as driver, that I am not the registered keeper and that I quite clearly saw the signs about being fined after 180 mins that makes me unsure about whether to use the template below or the template at the beginning of the Newbie sticky...?


See below the letter I have written but not yet sent.


Dear Sir or Madam,

Ticket number: xxxxxx
Vehicle registration number: xxxxx


You issued me with a parking ticket on x and although not on the Parking on Private Land Appeals list of grounds for appeal I believe the ticket was unfairly issued and I will not be paying your demand for payment for the followingreasons:


· I cannot afford to pay the fee
I am a law-abiding citizen and I made an honest mistake but I cannot afford the fee. I am currently ill and have been off work for approx 8 months. I am now on a phased return to work however this means I am on significantly reduced pay and in fact in my last pay I received no pay at all. Please see attached proof of my financial position as evidence.

· The fee is disproportionate
According to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations, parking charges on private land must not exceed the cost to the landowner during the period the motorist is parked there. In my case, the £70 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner. As the parking there is free for 180 minutes I am unsure how £70 can be justified for a further 180 minutes.


If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

** Please note I have posted before but this was when I heard from Enterprise not directly from EuroCars.

Stroma

No, no, no, no

Use this instead don't alter it in any way apart from adding your name and address and ticket number, send through the post office with a free proof of postage.

And read this not ancient advice on MSE

Edit; the reason to use 'keeper' instead of driver name is that you are not admitting anything, and the actual driver could be someone else.

Dear Euro Car Parks

PCN number xxxxxxx
As the keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass

Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your recent Notice failed to make the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).

Take formal note:

(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.

(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.

Yours,



{the keeper's name}
ADD A SQUIGGLE IF POSTING IT - NO NEED TO USE A REAL SIGNATURE

empage

Thanks for that, I think I am very confused about the Keeper. Enterprise own the car. I hired the car and was the only named driver. The PCN was sent to Enterprise and they have contacted Euro Car Parks saying that I was the driver. I don't and have never owned the car. they have already stated I was the driver so as far as I am aware Euro Cars already know this.... Can I still use the words keeper in this case?

I did read the newbie bit you have linked to, however I think what is confusing me is this Keeper bit (I dont own the car). And the fact that the signage was actually very clear making me think that point 2 would be irrelevant?

My having hired the car has totally thrown me here.

Thanks,

Emily

Stroma

The registered keeper will be the hire company, who I hope haven't charged you an admin fee beyond their T&Cs ?

The keeper could be a number of people driving it, for example the person hiring the vehicle, or maybe a second person who could be driving it. That commonly happens with company lease vehicles.

Under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 a keeper can be used to appeal or deal with this, so even though it sounds a bit daft don't say who is driving as it gives the parking company something they don't really need to know.

Trust us on here, we have seen this situation thousands of times and know about this situation.

bod1467

You could always change keeper to hirer ... that still doesn't make you the driver, just the person who hired the vehicle.

A better description may be - keeper on the day

HO87

@empage - POFA allows for a keeper to be pursued where the PPC doesn't know who was driving at the time bearing in mind that it could only have been the driver that entered into any contract.

The importance in ensuring that PPC's do not learn who the driver was in any given situation (or in a majority of them) is to oblige them to jump through the hoops that POFA provides with regard to timescales of certain notices and detail that the notices must contain. If they trip up in any respect then they cannot use POFA to pursue the keeper and they don't know who the driver is. QED.

As for your own situation under recently agreed changes Enterprise need only have supplied ECP with a certificate to the effect that you were the hirer. ECP are not to know - and cannot readily establish - whether there were any other drivers. I understand your position but given that it is ECP who are making the "allegation" (by issuing the PCN) its is incumbent upon them to make their case. You don't have to make it for them. Stroma/bod1467's suggestions are perfectly sound and based on our experience of the way in which the law is currently being used.

I would recommend that you describe yourself as the hirer.

(out of interest you might like to note my signature - and my avatar this week is Mr Tucker himself resplendant in his wing collar although the picture is absent his Rolls - probably paid for out of the number of PCN's his company issue. Knowing your "enemy" is always useful).

empage

Brilliant, it all makes so much more sense now. I had it in my head that Enterprise would have forwarded the contract I signed stating I was the only driver but in reality even if Enterprise have done that I could have added a second driver later or of course had someone else drive it without Enterprise's permission. I am getting the play-them-at-thier-own-game hat on now I think.

Enterprise did charge me £35 but on the advice of MSE [STRIKE]Gods[/STRIKE] forum users, I am challenging that and asking for a refund due to their t&cs only stating that they will charge a reasonable admin fee for processing any fines or offences against the vehicle. I am challenging it based on this being neither an offence nor fine. To be honest I would have let that slide if Enterprise had actually charged a 'reasonable fee'. I would have said reasonable would have been up to a maximum of £20 but then reasonable is somewhat subjective which is probably why that term is used in the t&cs in the first place.

As always the help and advise on the MSE Forum is brilliant. Thank you so much.

Stroma

It's not a reasonable charge, not even 10p is reasonable as it's not in their T&Cs , if it's not there then they are in breach of their own terms, they know this and and laugh every time they do it!

Tell them that it's not in their terms and they can't just treat this as a fine or penalty, if they reject this then inform them that you are sending a letter before claim and will sue them.

Another way is to do a charge back on your card, tell your bank it's an unauthorised debit and demand your money back, and stop enterprise charging your card again.

empage

Thanks Stroma the emailed complaint went last night so we will see what happens next. I hadn't thought about the charge back if they dont get back to me I may just do that.

Thanks!

Emily