Perception vs Reality

dell12

Interesting thread.

I think UKIP has chimed with alot of people in the UK who feel that while immigration may be benefiting the economy, the UK is changing very, very quickly.

In my part of East London there last 10 or so years have seen a massive increase in the number of Eastern Europeans. Almost without exception they work hard and in the vast majority of cases aren't claiming benefits. (Although how much tax is paid I do wonder)

That said many will sleep 3/4 to a bedroom, in woods or sheds simply for the ability to work in the UK. It's very hard for the average British builder, laborer or decorator to compete with this. I'm not particularly convinced (even in London) there's much integration either.

At the end of the day I don't think it's a debate which can be looked at simply in economic terms. I appreciate London is different to the rest of the UK and has always been a destination of choice for many immigrants but I think there needs to be some debate about integration and what we want to look like as a country in 10 years time.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

ukcarper wrote: »

Although 20% is a minority it is a significant number of people and they are the people who can the least afford it.

Well in fairness 40p a week isn't exactly a big hit to take, even for the low paid, and it's one easily corrected through the tax system anyway.

What we need in this country is an open and honest debate, that clearly explains the benefits of Europe and immigration, and that clearly lays out the dangers of taking other paths.

We'll never get it of course, because it's too convenient for politicians to blame Europe for their own failings.

ukcarper

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Well in fairness 40p a week isn't exactly a big hit to take, even for the low paid, and it's one easily corrected through the tax system anyway.

What we need in this country is an open and honest debate, that clearly explains the benefits of Europe and immigration, and that clearly lays out the dangers of taking other paths.

We'll never get it of course, because it's too convenient for politicians to blame Europe for their own failings.

I think it is more than 40p and you still assume the report is accurate which is debatable. But I agree we need an open and honest debate on Europe and immigration. The trouble is the major parties that are in favour of Europe seem reluctant to enter discussion and there is very little coverage of the benefits of being in Europe in the press.

PaulF81

Having lived around Newark, wouldn't be surprised if the respondents didn't have more than 10 fingers and toes and had an advantage swimming due to their webbed feet.

Whilst loving little market towns for the general atmosphere, there is a definite undertone of racism and xenophobic hatred, usually amongst the retired boomer generation and unemployed who can't be backsided to get a job.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

ukcarper wrote: »

I think it is more than 40p and you still assume the report is accurate which is debatable. .

I tend to think that when the overwhelming majority of studies and research all come to very similar conclusions, chances are, they're right.

And whether it's 1p a week, or 40p a week, or £1 a week, the research all demonstrates that any negative effects on wages at the lower end of the distribution are very small indeed.

The report is much to theoretical to be considered definitive.

In isolation, perhaps so, but again it joins a very long list of research that finds essentially the same thing. And not just in the UK..... We find the same outcomes from around Europe and the USA as well.

The evidence on this topic is pretty clear, immigration doesn't drive down wages for the majority of people, it actually results in wage increases for most of the native born population.

Which is not the same thing as saying there are no negative effects of immigration, for a small minority there are, but these effects are temporary in nature and even most of those affected ultimately end up with better labour market outcomes with immigration than without it.

ukcarper

I still think that 20% is a significant number I'm not saying I'm against immigration but that the negative effects need to be identified and dealt with. It's perception that counts and if the parties if favour of EU membership don't put the arguments for membership forward in a honest way people will vote to leave. Which like you I believe will be a bad thing.

Generali

The evidence on this topic is pretty clear, immigration doesn't drive down wages for the majority of people, it actually results in wage increases for most of the native born population.

Which is not the same thing as saying there are no negative effects of immigration, for a small minority there are, but these effects are temporary in nature and even most of those affected ultimately end up with better labour market outcomes with immigration than without it.

This is the key part for me. It's not so much a case of this single study being accurate (and it's interesting to note that not a single poster criticising it has come up with anything specific) it's that the overwhelming mass of studies across times and across countries shows the same thing.

Whether you look at Toronto in the 1990s, C19th USA, C21st London or anywhere else the story remains the same: free immigration benefits the destination country immensely, even amongst the poor. If nothing else, a higher tax base means a greater welfare state can be paid for. After all, as Mrs Thatcher recognised it's not enough to have good intentions towards the poor, you have to have money to have a welfare state.

Sampong

PaulF81 wrote: »

Having lived around Newark, wouldn't be surprised if the respondents didn't have more than 10 fingers and toes and had an advantage swimming due to their webbed feet.

Whilst loving little market towns for the general atmosphere, there is a definite undertone of racism and xenophobic hatred, usually amongst the retired boomer generation and unemployed who can't be backsided to get a job.

What's amusing about this is that you seem to infer you are against racism, yet precede this by making a stereotypical comment, and a highly offensive one at that.

And then Hamish, who of course is against all this sort of thing - thanks your post :rotfl:

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Generali wrote: »

the overwhelming mass of studies across times and across countries shows the same thing.

It really does.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Sampong wrote: »

And then Hamish, who of course is against all this sort of thing - thanks your post

I'm certainly not against a bit of p1ss taking from time to time, and if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are it has webbed feet......