epetition to get student finance start this Sep

morg_monster

so... government decides on changes to student loans... government tells people about these changes a full year before they come into effect ... everyone has a go and tells them to make the changes NOW, that students will be dropping out...

When should they have told us about these changes to make everyone happy? What if they told us at christmas - then everyone would be moaning that they didn't give 2007/8 intake the opportunity to defer with this knowledge at the start of the year? And if they told us after the UCAS deadline then we would be moaning that there will be potential uni students put off by the debt who didn't apply for uni but might have changed their mind if they knew about the new rules?

When is the right time to implement these changes? What would you have them do? What about the students who started last year? Just saying that these ideas do take a long time to develop and put into practice and there is no perfect time to make these announcements. Someone is always going to be worse off with something like this.
Just trying to be devils advocate but am interested in what you would have done.

PS - i graduated in 2003 with £12k of student debt - just so you know - i'm not a student basher! and I'm appalled at the interest rate decision.

surfsister

well morg-monster I hate all this changing the goal posts it's so unfair to all concerned and where does the 6 billions come from?

si1503

Blacksheep1979 wrote: »

Do you honestly think that

a. The petition will achieve anything

b. Even if everyone in the country signed it that there would be enough time to implement it in a month or so?

No.... and no.

si1503

It can be argued the grants should have been this way from the start. But to change the system now, and so, subsidising HE more, I feel, is a very poor decision.

The whole idea of the student loan system was to internalize the costs of higher education, something I agree with, as education is an investment, and having a degree has very high individual benefits (potentially). Therefore it is only right that the individual contributes something to this. I don't feel students should pay the full costs, as an educated workforce benefits the economy as a whole, but certainly they should part contribute.

Now what this new system does is subsidises education more, but it does so in an inefficient way, as it only subsidises those that are on lower incomes, therefore higher income households lose out, as do the rest of the taxpaying public that aren't low income earners with dependants going into HE. Therefore the Government is giving away out handouts, a very left-wing move.

The government is already overspending, and there are far more important areas to be spending taxpayers money on, I really can not understand why they have done it.

So, what is the impact of this? (aside from more taxpayers money down the drain) more youngsters are going to go in to HE! They get £3000 a year to do whatever, and I think we will see a continued, if not, accelerrated trend of young people going into HE that really shouldn't be. Hence draining the system, and wasting their time, and the resources of our Universities.

I don't believe the decision was a good one, it just feels like a step backward, and I can't wait to see the back of Gordon Brown already at the next General Election. I just hope he calls it quick, before he messes up our country too much.

someone

morg_monster wrote: »

so... government decides on changes to student loans... government tells people about these changes a full year before they come into effect ... everyone has a go and tells them to make the changes NOW, that students will be dropping out...

When should they have told us about these changes to make everyone happy? What if they told us at christmas - then everyone would be moaning that they didn't give 2007/8 intake the opportunity to defer with this knowledge at the start of the year? And if they told us after the UCAS deadline then we would be moaning that there will be potential uni students put off by the debt who didn't apply for uni but might have changed their mind if they knew about the new rules?

When is the right time to implement these changes? What would you have them do? What about the students who started last year? Just saying that these ideas do take a long time to develop and put into practice and there is no perfect time to make these announcements. Someone is always going to be worse off with something like this.
Just trying to be devils advocate but am interested in what you would have done.

PS - i graduated in 2003 with £12k of student debt - just so you know - i'm not a student basher! and I'm appalled at the interest rate decision.

Your missing the point i think. What is wrong it will only apply to those starting in 08/09 or later. Those in there second year or third will still be paying the same fees but wont get as much support.

They cant change it for September (too much red tape ... student support has been sorted for this year) BUT they can change it so it will apply to everyone next year

morg_monster

Your missing the point i think. What is wrong it will only apply to those starting in 08/09 or later. Those in there second year or third will still be paying the same fees but wont get as much support.

They cant change it for September (too much red tape ... student support has been sorted for this year) BUT they can change it so it will apply to everyone next year

Ok I do concede that point. I hadn't got that from the previous posts.

surfsister:
well morg-monster I hate all this changing the goal posts it's so unfair to all concerned and where does the 6 billions come from?

If the goal posts are changed for the better surely its worth the confusion?
And surely the 6 billion is just the value of the loans they have sold? IE there is £16billion worth of student debt in the UK at the moment, so just sell £6billion of it to a company and voila, the government has recouped that £6billion.
Its not like they're profiting (much) further - they are simply getting back the money they loaned to the students by selling on their debt.
I get that people don't like the idea of the loans being sold, but thats another matter. they are recouping £6billion by selling £6billion worth of debt.

surfsister

thanks guys enjoying the discussions and I get the 6 billion now!

someone

Just incase anyone is still a bit confused I have drawn up this table to show what this petition is for

Current Proposal 
 	06/07 Entry	07/08 Entry	08/09 Entry
06/07	Old Package	-		-
07/08	Old Package	Old Package	-
08/09	Old Package	Old Package	New Package 
09/10	-		Old Package	New Package 
10/11	-		-		New Package 

But would this not be fairer?
 	06/07 Entry	07/08 Entry	08/09 Entry
06/07	Old Package	-		-
07/08	Old Package	Old Package	-
08/09	New Package	New Package	New Package 
09/10	-		New Package	New Package 
10/11	-		-		New Package

surfsister

useful so anyone under the new package can take 5 yr payment breaks for buying a house or having baby etc but under the old cannot.

Also anyone whose parents earn between £18,500 and £25,000 under the new get a full grant but under the old don't. How fair is that?

I know obviously the govt needs to declare this new package someonetime byt why do so when the forms for this year have only just been sent off bound to cause resentment surely? if they had waited til Dec everyone would have said, "O'h great we'll get beter terms next year."

Just seems unfair.

surfsister

I see from yesterday's paper the govt has upset a lot more people by deciding to change the amount of years needed for a state pension from 39 to 30 (to help women who have had children or are carers mainly) but announced it will start in 3 years so anyone retiring in the next 3 years won't benefit.

Funny how they manage to announce good chnages and upset a whole lot of people at the same time as some of these people will be much worse off than others who are born a few days later!