Unfair parking charges

Laura_Simister

Hi
I've read through the sticky thread and can't see a situation like the one I have and wondered if someone could help?

I parked in a pub car park last week and wrongly didn't get a ticket (i was only going to be 10mins) and I didn't have a pound coin which the machine takes. It costs £1 or £2 to park for several hours.

When I returned to the car I had a parking ticket which was issued by LPS. The ticket was a charge for £80 for not displaying a ticket. I'm not against paying what I owe but £80 is a little excessive. I've appealed with LPS and they say I still need to pay. Is it worth appealing with POPLA?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Laura

bod1467

Your situation is NO DIFFERENT to anyone else who receives a Parking Charge Notice - a speculative invoice. The parking company are trying to claim an unenforceable penalty whereas the only thing claimable are provable losses or a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

As the NEWBIES thread states, wait for the Notice to Keeper (assuming it is you or a family member, and this is not a lease/hire car) and then send the template appeal (as the keeper) from the NEWBIES thread. I skim-read and didn't notice you'd already appealed.

Q. Does the signage talk about breach of terms and conditions of parking? Or does it talk about a contractual charge? (I'm not sure how well LPS are known around here).

da_rule

You've already appealed to LPS? Did they give you a POPLA code? If so then yes it's worth appealing to POPLA.

ColliesCarer

Yes it's worth appealling to POPLA - did they give you a code?
The NEWBIES sticky contains all the information you need - you only think it doesn't because your still hanging on to what happened on the night and looking for something that matches your circumstances - they aren't what matters - the legal grounds for proving these charges are not enforceable are what matters
- you need to re-read it and take a look especially #post 3 of that thread for How to Win at POPLA

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/481682

Stroma

Yes it's worth appealing to popla, but with our help. Please don't do this alone as you'll probably fail as I can tell you haven't fully researched this.

Umkomaas

Your case is no different to anyone else's - the 'story' doesn't matter. You have a PCN and you don't want to pay it.

If LPS is London Parking Services then they are now IPC members and POPLA doesn't operate in their scheme, they have their own IAS.

But they only joined the IPC on 25/03/14, so could you give us the date of your ticket please?

http://www.theipc.info/#!aos-members/cv75

You really shouldn't have appealed so early, should have waited for the Notice to Keeper, but you are where you are. As IPC members deal with parking arrangements a little differently to BPA members (purportedly!), using an attempt at a 'Contractual Clause' in their signage the IAS appeal needs to be a bit different - we will help you with that.

Can you take a scan/photo of your ticket, LPS reply in rejecting your appeal and (if possible) a photo of the signage at the pub. Redact all personal identifiers. Upload to this thread using Photobucket or similar photo-hosting site and provide a broken link (remove http, www from the link) for us to view them.

HTH.

Laura_Simister

Hi all,
Thanks for your comments.

Hopefully these are all of your questions answered.

Q. Does the signage talk about breach of terms and conditions of parking? Or
does it talk about a contractual charge? (I'm not sure how well LPS are known
around here).

A. See pictures further down.

Q. You've already appealed to LPS? Did they give you a POPLA code?

A. Yes I appealed and they've given me a POPLA code.

Q. If LPS is London Parking Services then they are now IPC members and POPLA
doesn't operate in their scheme, they have their own IAS.

A. No, LPS is Local Parking Security.

Q. Can you take a scan/photo of your ticket, LPS reply in rejecting your appeal
and (if possible) a photo of the signage at the pub. Redact all personal
identifiers. Upload to this thread using Photobucket or similar photo-hosting
site and provide a broken link (remove http, www from the link) for us to view
them.

A. Please see attached. Picture of the sign and ticket.

i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t658/Laura_Simister/photo_zps393a221b.jpg

i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t658/Laura_Simister/Capture_zpsa6c59f23.png



Reply from LPS in regards appeal

We advise that the terms and conditions for parking including the Excess
Charges applicable are clearly stated on the machine notices and signage located
throughout the car park.


The De Trafford Arms car park operates as a Pay and Display system for all
car park users. This is clearly stated on the machine notices and signage
located throughout the car park.


As no ticket was purchased and displayed in your vehicle the Excess Charge
Notice was correctly issued.


The vehicle was observed parked in the car park without displaying a valid
ticket for 9 minutes before the Excess Charge Notice was issued.


Local Parking Security Ltd manage the car park on behalf of the landowners. A
copy of the contract will be provided to POPLA when the evidence is
requested.


Thank you for your appeal against the parking charge notice issued by us to
you on the 10 April 2014. Having carefully considered the evidence provided by
you we regret your appeal has been unsuccessful for the following reasons:


• Parking without displaying a valid ticket


You now have a number of options:


1. Pay the parking charge Notice at the reduced amount of £50.00
within 14 days. Please note that after this time the parking charge notice will
increase to £85.00.


2. Make an appeal to POPLA – The independent Appeals Service by
completing the accompanying form or by making your appeal online POPLA Please
note that if you wish to appeal to POPLA, you will lose the right to pay the
charge at the discounted rate of £50.00, and should POPLA’s decision not go in
your favour you will be required to pay the full amount of £85.00. If you opt to
pay the parking charge you will be unable to appeal to POPLA.


3. If you choose to do nothing we will seek to recover the monies
owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action
against you.





Please find attached details of how to appeal to POPLA. You must quote the
verification code quoted at the bottom of this form.


Yours sincerely,

bod1467

Unless I'm misreading, LPS are trying to infer a contractual charge by their sign. Which means the POPLA appeal wording needs to be carefully considered. However their excess charges apply for breaches to T&Cs, so it's really just a usual No GPEoL defence at POPLA, properly worded to rebut their signage.

PS - LPS do not appear in the FOI court case list for 01/10/2012 to 30/09/2013.

Umkomaas

@OP - thanks for the great response to questions and getting the photos posted.

Clear as daylight on their signage - 'Contravening the parking conditions'. Perfect for a GPEOL-based appeal to POPLA.

So choose a suitable POPLA appeal template - linked via the NEWBIES sticky, flex it to suit your circumstances (but not your 'story' - they don't adjudicate on mitigation'), post up a draft here and we'll help you fine tune for a winning appeal.

Laura_Simister

Hi all,



I've had a go at drafting an appeal email (bit of a copy pastejob...) Very open to suggestions on improvements/bits to add/remove etc, as yousay I'm not all that sure what I'm doing

Dear POPLA

Address
My Details
Ref.
Issued.
Reg.
Todays Date

I am the registered keeper of vehicle reg xxx xxxx and I contendthat I am not liable for the Excess Parking Notice. I wish to appeal againstthe PCN notice on the following grounds.


1) The charge is a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate ofloss'. The £85 charge asked for, far exceeds the cost to the landowner whowould have received £2.00 from any vehicles parked.

In the appeal LPS did not address this issue, and has not statedwhy they feel a £85 charge is an appropriate pre-estimate of loss.

For this charge to be justified a full breakdown of the costsLPS has suffered as a result of the car being parked at the car park isrequired and should add up to £85. Normal expenditure the company incurs tocarry on their business (e.g. provision of parking, parking enforcement orsignage erection) should not be included in the breakdown, as these operationalcosts would have been suffered irrespective of the car being parked at that carpark.

2) Proprietary Interest

As the registered keeper, I do not believe that LPS hasdemonstrated a proprietary interest in the land, because they have no legalpossession which would give LPS any right to offer parking spaces, let aloneallege a contract with third party customers of the lawful owner/occupiers. Inaddition, LPS’s lack of title in this land means they have no legal standing toallege trespass or loss, if that is the basis of their charge.

The registered keeper believes there is no contract with thelandowner/occupier that entitles them to levy these charges and therefore hasno authority to issue parking charge notices (PCNs). This being the case, theburden of proof shifts to Parking eye. The driver expects Parking Eye to provethat they are not in breach of section 7.1 of the BPA code.

I’m unsure of the wording of this bit...

‘let alone allege a contract with third party customersof the lawful owner/occupiers. In addition, LPS’s lack of title in this landmeans they have no legal standing to allege trespass or loss, if that is thebasis of their charge’ as in the email response LPS say they manage the land ofbehalf the landowners.

Should I include it....?

Thanks!

Redx

doesnt look much like a popla appeal to me , so pardon me for saying so, it actually reads more like the template letter to a PPC , not POPLA

FOR COMPARISON, read this one somebody posted today https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4949180

there are dozens of popla appeal examples in the newbies thread link , including one by guys-dad with the core points in it

I am not saying yours wont win, but why risk it ?

I would either adapt the one I linked you to for your circumstances, OR use a recent one more suited to your circumstances or the car park or the PPC

please compare the 2 side by side, then tell me which you prefer ? , the long winded one with plenty of detail and examples ? or yours ?

I am trying to help here, even if it is criticising your draft , which is the point of the forum , to critique and to improve the appeals etc

here is another one just posted for comments etc https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4949298

and another one https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4947641
regards