What counts as a bedroom?

joshp1407

Hi guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm a FTB in a situation where I've found the perfect house for my family (fiancee and baby). It's located near great school, good access to work and has a park within easy walking distance. So far so good. The house is advertised as a three bed, which upon reading the description and viewing was 2 double rooms with the third single being converted to a lobby giving access to the converted loft.

I had a homebuyers report which highlighted to me (among other things) that the loft was not a habitable space. When I spoke to the surveyor, he explained it was because he noticed the lack of mains smoke alarms, fire doors etc. This didn't concern me, as my brother in law is an electrician and offered to do the work, and the doors were going to be replaced before the room was used.

I enquired to the vendor on a second viewing, who said that the work was done before he moved in and a carpenter friend told me to inspect the joists in the loft, which I could get to in the eaves. Lo and behold, there are only 4x2" joists visible in place, with not enough clearance to suggest that there are any other deeper joists anywhere supporting the conversion. I've checked on the councils website, and they have no record of BR ever been approved at the address which means that it's either been built non compliant or predates 1985 (when BR came into force I believe?).

I've got a few concerns, mainly:
1) should a building survey be completed immediately, as if this conversion has been in place for more than 15 years (when the current owner moved in) it must have damaged at least the joists, if not more? could the floor have been strengthened somehow in the middle over a load bearing wall? If a survey is needed who would pay for this?
2) does this make the house a two bedroomed house? the old third bedroom now cannot fit a bed in because of the staircase to the loft, so surely that can't count any more?

I don't intend to use the loft as a living space for a few years, as we don't need the bedroom, but it will be great to expand into, we're planning on really settling down. We're both trying to look at this with rose tinted glasses on as we both love too much about the house to walk away (plus we've already invested a lot of money with surveys, sols, searches etc). I don't know what step to take next, does anyone have any advice?

I've already been reading a lot of posts and you guys are brilliant, hope you can help.

weeg

I don't know anything about building regs in England, but I do know (because I'm a structural engineer, just a scottish one) that it's entirely possible to have a load bearing floor in a 4" deep void. I also know there are idiots in the world who do truly stupid things to houses (using a loft as a full on library without strengthening the floor, or cutting bits out of roof trusses to make more space). You are spending a fortune on a house, so for your own piece of mind get a structural survey done.

joshp1407

weeg wrote: »

I also know there are idiots in the world who do truly stupid things to houses (using a loft as a full on library without strengthening the floor, or cutting bits out of roof trusses to make more space).

Cheers for getting back. That's the bit I'm scared of. I would get a survey done straight away if not for the cost. Would the vendor be expected to pay for the survey as the results could help keep the house price up? What if it comes back with issues? Would the price be reduced to reflect costs to repair damage, or would I expect the vendor to pay for the repairs before completion.

I only suggest the second option because surely once the survey is done, surely the EA has a duty to reflect the results in their valuation and description?

I don't want to lose the house because the vendor thinks I'm time wasting etc (they've already completed on their new home)

Jenniefour

This needs investigating properly - if the surveyor who did the homebuyers report is saying it's not habitable space it's possibly more than a few missing bits and pieces that can be rectified for little cost. If it really is not habitable that means:-

a) you could possibly be overpaying for the property by a substantial amount if the loft space has been counted as a bedroom by the EA

b) it may cost as much as a starting from scratch with a loft conversion that is BR compliant. This happened to the previous owners of the house I live in now - all looked great but when they had it properly investigated (after they bought, unfortunately) everything had to be ripped out, including the staircase. There were no extra supports in at all. It was not compliant in any respect. That wasn't a repair job.

Quit worrying about the vendors - you need to make sure you don't make a costly mistake by feeling you need to get on with it without getting the loft checked properly. Don't allow yourself to be pressured by the vendor or the EA. It's worth spending a few hundred to find out for certain, even if it means walking away and finding somewhere else.

CKhalvashi

We discussed on the forum the other night, that if you can't afford to do a survey, you can't afford to buy the house (see here)

If it's only 2 bedroom now, it should be sold as such. There is nothing stopping you from finishing the job to regulation standard, making it a three bedroom property afterwards.

The difference between 2 and 3 bed at my UK home is around £75k on average, so definitely worth spending the money on.

CK

Running_Horse

What counts as a bedroom?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-36053260.html?backListLink=%2Fproperty-for-sale%2Fmap.html%3FlocationIdentifier%3DREGION%255E1428%26insId%3D1%26minBedrooms%3D3%26maxBedrooms%3D3%26displayPropertyType%3Dhouses%26oldDisplayPropertyType%3Dhouses%23_includeSSTC%3Don%26auction%3Dfalse%26displayPropertyType%3Dhouses%26locationIdentifier%3DREGION%255E1428%26maxBedrooms%3D3%26minBedrooms%3D3%26oldDisplayPropertyType%3Dhouses%26previousSearchLocation%3DWest%2520Malling%26radius%3D0.0%26searchLocation%3DWest%2520Malling%26searchType%3DSALE%26useLocationIdentifier%3Dfalse%26box%3D0.40252%2C0.41688%2C51.29421%2C51.30000%26popupPropertyId%3D36053260&fromMap=true

On picture 5 they appear to be counting the lounge as a bedroom (the room with a great big sofa blocking off the front door).

In Maidstone there are frequently houses sold with the loft conversion described as a "useful" extra room rather than as a bedroom.

joshp1407

Jenniefour wrote: »

a) you could possibly be overpaying for the property by a substantial amount if the loft space has been counted as a bedroom by the EA

b) it may cost as much as a starting from scratch with a loft conversion that is BR compliant.

I'm thinking this myself. I don't mind if I need to start again, because like you say, the house price will have to drop to reflect it, meaning I could (in theory !) make the money back when I sell.

CKhalvashi wrote: »

We discussed on the forum the other night, that if you can't afford to do a survey, you can't afford to buy the house

If it's only 2 bedroom now, it should be sold as such. There is nothing stopping you from finishing the job to regulation standard, making it a three bedroom property afterwards.

The difference between 2 and 3 bed at my UK home is around £75k on average, so definitely worth spending the money on.

We can afford it, we've had money aside for 'complications'. I just don't understand why buyers have to make all these payments to prove that what the seller and EA say is all above board and safe. Surely the Vendor should have responsibility to prove that the house is safe, as they have advertised it as such! I guess that's more of a tirade against the industry though...

Would the Vendor & EA be expecting me to ask for a reduction now? If the house was a little on the high end when it was a 3 bed, I assume the EA can't still sell as a 3 bed. Would they do another valuation, or would they keep trying to sell it for the price advertised (i know they work on commission)?

Running_Horse wrote: »

On picture 5 they appear to be counting the lounge as a bedroom (the room with a great big sofa blocking off the front door).

In Maidstone there are frequently houses sold with the loft conversion described as a "useful" extra room rather than as a bedroom.

That house is lovely, but I see what you mean, I suppose bedroom is a loose definition?

It's a bit confusing, the description calls it an 'attic room currently used a bedroom'. The old third bedroom is 6.5' x 7.75' but has a staircase in it, basically making it impossible to use it as a bedroom.

Thanks for your help so far guys, being a FTB in a new town i'm finding it hard to speak to people for advice.

dominoman

joshp1407 wrote: »

Cheers for getting back. That's the bit I'm scared of. I would get a survey done straight away if not for the cost. Would the vendor be expected to pay for the survey as the results could help keep the house price up? What if it comes back with issues? Would the price be reduced to reflect costs to repair damage, or would I expect the vendor to pay for the repairs before completion.

The vendor won't pay for a survey. You could ask if you like - but they will refuse.

It's the buyers job to assure themselves.

If you like the house then get a survey. It will cost 600-1000 but in the scheme of things is well worth it if it reassures you, or it prevents a massive mistake.

The survey could easily pay for itself if you are able to use it to negotiate a reduction in the price.

Loft rooms that have been done without full building regs should not be marketed as extra bedrooms. But they often are. If the agent is told by the vendor that it is legit they have no obligation to check.

So long as the job was done well and the floor strengthened, then there is no need to run away. It could be perfectly fine to live in and use, though the lack of Building Regs could make it harder to sell in future.

dominoman

BTW - We are in the process of buying a house that was marketed as having two bedrooms on the upper floor, which turns out to be done without building regs.

We like the house so are going ahead anyway.

DRP

CKhalvashi wrote: »

We discussed on the forum the other night, that if you can't afford to do a survey, you can't afford to buy the house (see here)

If it's only 2 bedroom now, it should be sold as such. There is nothing stopping you from finishing the job to regulation standard, making it a three bedroom property afterwards.

The difference between 2 and 3 bed at my UK home is around £75k on average, so definitely worth spending the money on.

CK

^this

We recently bought a house with a converted loft (ensuite + bedroom).

It was advertised as 3 bed and the mortgage valuation was carried out on this basis. It subsequently turned out no building regs existed so the mortgage company wanted the place re-valued as a 2 bed. This forced our vendors to seek regularisation from the BR office at the council - a grand or so worth of rectification (fire retardant paint, roof vents, fire alarms) and things were back on track.

So my point is it may not matter if you are happy with the loft - is your mortgage provider happy with it?

egoode

I'm in the process of buying a flat that had the loft converted. I was originally told it was a bedroom. I've since discovered they didn't install the correct fire doors, they haven't put in the right smoke detectors and also the ceiling height is 10cm to low for Building Control to sign it off as a habitable room. I've also had a structural engineer around who's advised while there have been some extra support added when it was converted they aren't strong enough for the room to be used as a bedroom but would allow light storage. I'm still planning to go ahead with the sale so long as I have no issues with the mortgage company not liking it! I've also managed to negotiate a discount on the price of the flat as I'm going to have to loft redone at some point if I want to use it as a bedroom which I do want eventually but I don't need it straight away.