Want to buy land, Council are making it impossible!!

Rtype

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right section to post in as I couldn't find a relevant one.

I am looking to buy some land in Surrey and am having HUGE difficulties with the local council.

I want to buy some land to walk my dogs on as the laws are changing soon meaning that I will only be able to walk a maximum of 4 dogs at a time on public land which will kill my business.

I foster dogs whilst we try to find them a new home (instead of them being put down) and also walk/train other peoples dogs to earn a living and desperately need my own land before these laws are changed.

On several occasions I have found suitable land (which is very hard to come buy in Surrey) and lost it due to the local councils. I have been told that I must apply for change of usage which takes 6-7 weeks and they cannot tell me any likely outcome until I have applied (which costs a lot) and in the meantime, the land gets bought by somebody else!

I have also been told that even if I did get the change of usage, I would have to pay business rates but they will not give me a figure, all I have managed to get out of them is that it would be in the region of £5-20K per annum!!! Surely they have rules/guidelines to work to, it seems like they pluck figures out of the air each time I speak to somebody?!?!
I also question why I have to pay this and why is it so hugh, I'm not receiving ANY services from the council, it would be my land and all I want to do is walk my dogs on it. I know that people who own land and rent to horse owners don't pay business rates so why am I different?!?!

If I wanted to buy some land to put horses onto it there would be absolutely no problem what-so-ever so why should this be so different for dogs (which would only be there mon-fri 9-3)?!?!

I know quite a few people who rent land and just haven't bothered to tell the council due to them being SO unhelpful, but if I'm buying I run the risk of them finding out and then telling me I cannot have dogs on it rendering my land useless to me.

If anybody could shed any light/experience/help on this I would be extremely grateful.

Many thanks

da_rule

My understanding is that the change of use is needed because you are changing the land use to commercial. If you were keeping your own dogs (or horses), and not making a gain from doing so then you may not need change of use. To use your horse example, if you were charging to stable other peoples horses then you would also probably need change of use.

There is this business rates calculator: https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-business-rates I haven't used it but it may be helpful.

You could run the risk of not telling them, but you could run the risk of a fine etc. I also believe all of your expenses in purchasing the land/applying for change of use/business rates/maintaining the land would be deductible for income tax purposes.

browneyedbazzi

If you are operating a business then you need the correct planning permission for operating the class of business (hence change of use) and to pay the appropriate business rates. If you were just using the land to walk/train your own animals (whether horses or dogs) then you wouldn't need change of use or to pay business rates.

As for working out what the business rates will be - I haven't a clue how they calculate rates but there will be some sort of formula. Someone on the taxation or small business board may be able to shed a bit more light on that.

Is your business actually profitable? If not, or if profits are small, then you may be eligible for rate relief - again, best to ask on the tax/small business boards.

Rtype

Thank you for the fast responses guys.

The biggest problem I have is that Land comes and goes VERY quickly in Surrey (especially in my price bracket) and I would have to apply for the change of usage for ANY land I buy. With the time scale of 6-7 weeks, the land is almost always gone.

It will cost me £300-400 to apply and they won't give me a rough idea of my chances, they won't even discuss it! If they said I've got a pretty good chance then I could apply and start making offers on the land but so far, nobody has been helpful in the slightest!

browneyedbazzi

If you want an idea of what your chances of getting the change of use are then your best bet is to talk to a planning consultant or to look at the published planning policy documents for the area and previous decisions to see if what you want to do is in keeping with the policy/past decisions of the committee.

Officers are not allowed to pre-judge applications so cannot tell you what they think the outcome is likely to be.

da_rule

Unfortunately it does seem like you're going to have to take the risk, not ideal, but if land is going that quickly then I struggle to see what other choice you have if the council are refusing to play ball.

As a side note, I was not aware of this change in law, does it only affect people walking dogs for commercial gain? Also, do you know the name of the Act/Bill which contains this new law?

princeofpounds

I agree with you, in the sense that it's pretty disgusting how council bureaucracy kills enterprise in this country.

Business rates are charged in a pretty arbitrary manner and can be a real killer to small businesses. They are predictable but you need to speak to someone who actually assesses them rather than a call centre monkey.

Your best bet is probably to speak to the planners on the change of use to understand what considerations they would have. Unfortunately they might also charge a fee for that meeting.

Prothet_of_Doom

Could you make an offer, subject to planning permission for this use being granted ?
My parents are attempting to sell a plot of land in Wales and thier council doesn't do "outline planning permission". Pay an architech to design the house you think someone might want, pay the council to apply for planning, obtain (or not) the planning permission, sell the land, with planning. New people will probably want a different house, pay an architech, apply for permission, (should get it, as long as it's not much different from previous), and then build house.

To save all the hassle, they have it up for sale on the understanding that any offer is based on the person buying it obtaining planning permission, and they will pay the council fees, if planning for a suitable 4 bed dormer bungalow can not be obtained.

Council will NOT discuss the possibility without seeing the money and the plans, but based on other permission granted in the area, there should not be an issue. But no point in wasting money if there are no serious buyers.

Davesnave

Rtype wrote: »

It will cost me £300-400 to apply and they won't give me a rough idea of my chances, they won't even discuss it! If they said I've got a pretty good chance then I could apply and start making offers on the land but so far, nobody has been helpful in the slightest!

No council official is likely to pre-judge this issue, as each case would be decided individually, on its merits.

My guess is that you'll find it an uphill battle attempting to change the use of potentially good agricultural land. Small, only marginally productive pieces would stand the best chance, and if you could incorporate an element beneficial to wildlife in your application, so much the better.

lincroft1710

Councils do not deal with business rates other than collect the money. The Valuation Office Agency (part of HMRC) assess land and buildings for business rates.

If you are just using the land to walk dogs, I can't see the assessment being very high. Can't you keep a couple of goats or pigs on the land, then it would remain agricultural and not be subject to business rates.

For rating purposes land used by dogs or horses is not considered to be agricultural. Stables are most definitely rateable see

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/Manuals/RatingManual/RatingManualVolume5/sect1006/e-rat-man-vol5-sec1006-pn1-2010.html#P75_2097

Finally, people may be prejudiced against dogs because they believe the dogs will be barking all the time, whereas horses are seen as handsome animals and part of the countryside.

Rtype

Thank you guys, certainly food for thought.

It's looking like I will never be able to get land at this rate and my business will either fold or make it so unviable (earnings wise) that I have to look at another job.

How is it that I can currently walk my dogs on any public land that I want and not pay business rates (and the council have to pay for the upkeep) and yet, if I buy my own land which 'I' pay to upkeep, I have to pay £5-20K in taxes?!?! I still can't get my head around that!!