Read Stickies - But still need help - Hospital Parking Ticket

airman1232

Hi All,

I have read the stickies, but would still like some help, a little confused on what authority NHS trust's have to issue a parking ticket.

I received a parking ticket at Kent and Canterbury Hospital. I actually parked in a staff bay, I have been back and there are signs up - Can take a pic if require. The parking attendant was taking pictures of the vehicle when I got to the car, tried talking to her but she was not having it. Here is a copy of the notice:



If I've read correctly this can be seen as trespassing, I have checked and they are a member of the BPA.

Thanks

da_rule

The advice in this situation is that you should wait for a notice to keeper to arrive through the post (within the next 29-56 days). You then appeal this using the template in the Newbies sticky thread.

However, the amount sought is £35 (reduced to £20), so my concern is that for the small amount they may be able to prove a genuine pre-estimate of loss, not sure what everyone else thinks?

In the meantime, contact the PALS service that operates at the hospital and see if they can help.

ColliesCarer

da_rule wrote: »

......However, the amount sought is £35 (reduced to £20), so my concern is that for the small amount they may be able to prove a genuine pre-estimate of loss, not sure what everyone else thinks?........

I share da_rule's concern about the sum.
The general advice when a windscreen ticket is issued is to wait for the NtK, appeal as keeper to the parking company and when/if they reject that appeal then appeal to POPLA using the three main grounds of not a genuine pre estimate of loss, no legal standing/ authority to act and non compliant signage. Failure to establish keeper liability is another point that can apply when they fail to send out compliant NtK's. Which is part of the reason for the advice to wait for the NtK.

The bulk of those appeals are won on the grounds of the charge not being a genuine pre estimate of loss, however, most parking companies are attempting to try to charge very unreasonable amounts that simply cannot be justified as a loss. £20 - £35 could possibly be justifiable.

The next most successful ground is no legal standing/authority and I also have concerns here too because as they have issued the charge themselves (and they are a BPA member) they may have the authority as presumably they are the landowner/occupier.

But wait and see what others who may be more familiar with dealing with this hospital think

bazster

Signage could be important.

airman1232

Thanks Guys,

I sent them an email today in a panic:
Parking Department

02/04/2014

Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Parking Appeal

Ticket number: xxx
Vehicle registration number: xx xx xxx

I am in receipt of the above in relation to a Parking Charge Notice issued on 02/04/2014. For the avoidance of doubt I am the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned.

I wish to appeal against the issue of the Parking Charge Notice on the following bases:

a) The charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss and is therefore unenforceable at law.

Please therefore cancel the above charge forthwith or supply me with a POPLA code so that I might appeal to them.

Yours faithfully

and they have just replied:

Dear Mr xxxx

Re: Parking Charge Notice Number xxx (Vehicle: xxxxx)

Issue date: 02/04/2014

Thank you for your appeal received on 02/04/2014 regarding the above numbered Parking Charge

Notice (PCN). We have carefully reviewed the case in light of your comments, and have also

considered the photographic evidence and notes gathered by the parking attendant.

Taking the above into account, we are satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued as your vehicle was

parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of Parking, and as such are unable to uphold your appeal.

Parking may only be undertaken in areas clearly marked out and designated for parking. Parking in areas not designated for parking is prohibited.

---

end of email

---

Not sure I can do anything about this one

Will wait for a few other replies.

Thanks

zzzLazyDaisy

It is a shame that you have identified yourself as the keeper, as you have potentially thrown away some extra appeal points, but we are where we are.

I have checked the current list of BPA approved operators, and can't find either Kent and Canterbury or Victoria hospitals.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Approved-Operators


But the PCN refers to POPLA and assuming they are in fact in the BPA in order to take this further you need the POPLA code. The first thing to do is to check the e-mail carefully for any 10 digit reference, or stray 10 digits in the footer or small print attached to the email. It is not unknown for the code to be hidden somewhere in the letter and not identified.

If you are sure that you have not been given the code, I would write back and say something like:

---

Dear Sirs

PCN xxxx
VRM xxxx

I refer to your email of [date] in which you inform me that my appeal of [date] has been rejected.

The above PCN states quite clearly that in these circumstances I have the right to appeal to POPLA, but you have not provided the 10 digit code to enable me to do so.

This is a clear breach of the BPA Code of Conduct and I have made a formal complaint to David Metcalfe at the BPA about your conduct.

Please either cancel the PCN or send me the necessary POPLA code by return.

Yours etc

---

Then make a formal complaint to David Metcalfe about their conduct in obstructing your right to appeal to POPLA by failing to provide the necessary code with their rejection of your appeal (See Coupon-Mad's Newbies thread on page 1 of this forum for details).

However, I too am concerned that you may not succeed on GPEOL in this case as it seems likely that the hospital is the landowner and since you parked in a staff bay, this is not a breach of contract case, but one of trespass. If they rely on trespass, breach of contract (and therefore gpeol) is a non-issue. Also the charge of £35 reducing to £20 for early payment may well be considered reasonable, given the admin costs of issuing the PCN and dealing with subsequent correspondence. There is also the possibility that as a result of you parking in a staff space, a member of staff may have had to park elsewhere and may have claimed that cost back from the hospital as expenses. If that is indeed the case, then those costs too would form part of the hospital's calculation of loss.

I don't often suggest paying up, but for parking in a space which is clearly not available to the public in the first place, I think I would seriously consider paying the £20.

Just my two pennorth, others may disagree.

ColliesCarer

I think they're in the BPA list prefixed "East"

Unfortunately, given the circumstances, I would have to say I think the chances of a successful POPLA appeal are slim and I agree with zzzLazyDaisy that it may be best to consider cutting your losses and pay the £20.

airman1232

Thanks LazyDaisy,

Silly me, I have re-checked the emails and I did include another page in the attachment, it reads:

We have however, extended the discounted payment period. Please now make payment of £20 to
reach us by 16/04/2014 or £35 to reach us by 30/04/2014. We must advise you that once the
discounted settlement rate passes it will not be offered again. Payment can be made by cheque made
payable to "xxx xx xx. Please ensure you write your PCN
number clearly on the reverse. Payment can also be made using a debit or credit card by calling the
payment line Monday - Friday 9:30 to 16:30 on xxx xxx xxx. Please do not send cash through the
post.

You also have the right to make an appeal to POPLA - the independent appeals service - via their
website: https://www.popla.org.uk. Please note, if you appeal to POPLA the ability to settle at the discounted
rate will end and should POPLA's decision not go in your favour you will be obliged to pay the full
amount. You will need your unique POPLA verification code in order to appeal to POPLA. This is
xxxxxxxxx. Please make a careful note of this as you will need it for your appeal form and in all your
correspondence with POPLA.

If you do nothing, we will seek to recover the PCN monies owed to us via our debt recovery service,
and may instigate court action against you.
We operate our car parks under an Approved Operator Scheme monitored by the British Parking
Association (BPA) and using the Code of Practice.

Yours sincerely,
Parking Management Services

---End---

Seems to me these guys know how to cover their back. They are an NHS trust, so you would need to see which trust runs those hospitals. I don't want to name them.

Just went back to the scene of the crime, and although I was in the staff car park I where I was parked on the end was not even a bay - It was after the last bay, I was not causing an obstruction, but I don't know if that matters.
Guess im pretty stuck!!

ColliesCarer

hugomiguel89 wrote: »

.....Guess im pretty stuck!!

Well, the view I've given is only my opinion about the strengths of the arguments and IMO your case would be weak on 3 out of the 4 main grounds.

But you could still submit a POPLA appeal including all the points anyway and it will cost them £27.50 if you do (unless they decide to cancel the charge or not respond to the POPLA appeal).

There's always the possibility that they'll be a no show in which case you would win by default or they may not provide sufficient evidence to rebut your challenges and the assessor may find in your favour accordingly.

But if you lose the appeal your costs will increase from the £20 it would be now to at least £35 (possibly more if Roxburghe try adding anything on).

Another option you could try is to see if you can negotiate the amount down - your argument being that if you submit a POPLA appeal then even if you lose the max they're going to get will be £7.50 net ( £35 - £27.50 POPLA cost) and they'll have to waste time and effort rebutting it.

But if you do try to negotiate make sure that you state you still deny liability but in seeking to resolve matters ..........

Anyway see what others think - you have plenty of time to sleep on this before deciding

Hot_Bring

I have to disagree about the low sums not being a GPEOL. If that were true there couldn't be a discount. The loses in days 1 - x and the loses in days x - y can't be different. So you pay day x+1 - what extra costs to the landowner have there been ? No, if the charge had no discount period then yes, it could be a GPEOL.

ColliesCarer

@Hot Bring - good point - it's not just about the amount is it. It's whether it can be justified as a genuine loss. And it seems the same amount is being charged for any breach - so the arguments are there but it's a tricky one to call I feel. What would be your view?