Help with wording on POPLA form

Akumo

Hi

I am hoping if someone is able to advise on how to word an appeal to POPLA.

My family and I live in a block of flats where CPM have been employed by the housing association whom we rent the flat off, to look after the parking area.

Now the problem is that the ticket was placed under the windscreen wiper of a van that I had hired.

The van was parked outside the main entrance to the block of flats, not causing an obstruction or on yellow lines etc. The reason for this was because I was wanting to unload several items of a large piece of furniture and the distance from our parking space to the front entrance to carry all of this is not insignificant.

As requested by CPM I sent an appeals letter to them stating:
That I am a resident in the block of flats
That I needed at least one hour to relax before starting to unload the items from the van due to the length of the trip and ill health (I was on antibiotics for an infection at the time).
There was no yellow lines where I parked.
That I parked the van up to unload pieces of furniture

I also quoted the signage which states:
"Unauthorised parking or parking a vehicle in an area or space that has not been designated to you may result in your vehicle receiving a parking charge notice."

As I had not parked in any space that had been designated to anyone means as far as I can tell that I was not in contravention of that particular part of the signage, therefore as far as I can tell therefore it boils down to what determines whether or not a vehicle is parked without authorisation.

The letter they sent back stating why my appeal failed was because of:
Vehicle not parked in a designated area
Signage states "No parking outside of a designated area/parking bay".
This is a lie.
Their last point is:
We appreciate your circumstances however, in order for the vehicle to be considered loading/unloading, you must show clear signs of this happening e.g. hazard lights on to show the vehicle is not parked. The signage states that unauthorised parking within an area that has not been designated to you may result within an area that has not been designated to you may result within (sic) your vehicle receiving a parking charge notice, therefore the area you have parked is not a resident parking area or a parking area for any vehicle for that matter as all vehicle (sic) must be parked within a designated are/parking bay at all times regardless of circumstances.

This of course raises the issue for when people wish to move into or out of the block of flats as there is literally no other legal convenient or safe location.

Thank you in advance

Ed

rainbowmuppetgirl86

Hi,

I am relatively new to posting on this forum but I am also awaiting a POPLA code in order to appeal my "parking charge".

From what I gather from my reading and advice/post from this forum, applying to POPLA on the grounds of mitigating circumstances WILL NOT win your appeal as POPLA does not take mitigating circumstances into account i.e. the information you provided above about your ill health etc is basically irrelevant.

The way to win at POPLA is basically to go for that the "parking charge" is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss (GPEOL - you might see on some posts I think) and signage that does not meet BPA (British Parking Association) or other regulatory body rules and/or no contract between the private parking company (PPC) and the driver (no don't mention that you are the driver) was established.

If you haven't already done so, look at the sticky threads in the forum for newbies as that is a good place to start to get an idea of what to include/how to word your POPLA appeal etc and there are some links to POPLA templates that can be tweaked accordingly.

Experienced members of the forum are all very helpful but do expect us newbies to do our own work for our appeals such as reading the newbies stickies etc but have no problems offering advice and checking through draft letters and providing feedback etc.

Hope that helps for now.

Akumo

Hi
Thanks for the repsonse, I was concerned that as I was in a hire vehicle that CPM would approach the hire company and that the hire company would pay the fine and then approach me to say that I owe them the fine plus the admin fee that is charged by the hire company.

I have done some reading and realise now (too late) that mitigating circumstances do not apply, however the point I was hoping to make a succesfull appeal on was that the van was not parked in a place were it should not be, there are some yellow lines in the car park (but not where I had parked), and that as a resident I should be able to determine whether or not a vehicle is authorised to park in an unmarked area.
Or is it that under the term "Unathorised parking" CPM have the last say on wether or not a vehicle does or does not meet this criteria.
I may therefore have to go down the route of " not a genuine pre-estimate of loss". Does it matter though if I did not mention this in my appeals letter to CPM?
If someone can confirm that this is the best way forward I am happy to create a draft and post on here for constructive comments and feed back.
Once again thank you in advance

Ed

ColliesCarer

Hi Akumo,

It looks like you have appealed to a windscreen notice and identified yourself as the driver. Is this correct?

Don't worry as it was a hire vehicle - that was the correct thing to do to avoid the possibility that the hire company would pay.

You can still appeal to POPLA as the driver.
But rainbowmuppetgirl is correct when she says that must be using certain legal and technical grounds and not the circumstances on the day (which are classed as mitigation and are specifically excluded from POPLA.

As you are joining this process part way through as it were I would suggest you begin by reading sticky NEWBIES thread to gen up on and understand the overall process and what a 1st appeal to the PPC should have been based on before moving on to post #3 of the thread which is about POPLA and contains information and template appeal letters. The link to the thread is below

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

and you might also find this flowchart useful - look at the most recent posts first and track back to find the latest version of the flowchart.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4922055

ColliesCarer

..... I was hoping to make a succesfull appeal on was that the van was not parked in a place were it should not be, there are some yellow lines in the car park (but not where I had parked), and that as a resident I should be able to determine whether or not a vehicle is authorised to park in an unmarked area....

You might have grounds that the vehicle was not improperly parked and can make that challenge as an additional point but do not base the whole of your POPLA appeal on any one ground - up to the PPC to then disprove if they can - check the signage and check what your lease says.
Who appointed CPM and have you approached them about getting this charge cancelled? If not may be worth trying.

I may therefore have to go down the route of " not a genuine pre-estimate of loss". Does it matter though if I did not mention this in my appeals letter to CPM?

No it doesn't matter and a large number of appeals are won on this ground. But your appeal needs to include as many of the technical grounds as apply - so in addition to no GPEOL - no legal standing/authority and non compliant signage grounds

Take a look at the template appeals

Akumo

Hi ColliesCarer
Thanks for the advice, busy reading at the moment, lots of info to take in.
I approached the Housing Association and they stated that it was between me and CPM, the HA did not want to get involved.
With regards to the signage I can raise the point but there are quite a few of them up around the car park, still I guess it cant hurt to include it in the appeal to POPLA.
What is most annoying though is that they claim to have quoted from the signage which is a complete lie, the signage doe not say anthing along those lines.
There are a lot of success' with regards to the GPEOL appeals method.
Regards
Akumo

ColliesCarer

Hi Akumo,

You don't have to decide whether their signs aren't compliant before you can include the point - you just need to include the challenge - then they have to show that they are - to do so means time and effort to produce the evidence - so the more points you include the more time/effort they have to put in and the more likely they won't bother or will make errors.

Yes there are a lot of successes by challenging them on not a genuine pre estimate of loss. But it's not a method - it's a valid legal challenge. And the reason there so many successes is because they cannot defend or justify it - because they are not just trying to recover their losses.

How can it possibly be reasonable to try to claim £90 from someone (or whatever they are claiming) just because that person parked in what the PPC say is the wrong area of their own flats?
What loss did the parking company incur because of that? £0.00
What loss did the landowner suffer because of that? £0.00

Coupon-mad

Akumo wrote: »

Hi ColliesCarer
Thanks for the advice, busy reading at the moment, lots of info to take in.
I approached the Housing Association and they stated that it was between me and CPM, the HA did not want to get involved.
With regards to the signage I can raise the point but there are quite a few of them up around the car park, still I guess it cant hurt to include it in the appeal to POPLA.
What is most annoying though is that they claim to have quoted from the signage which is a complete lie, the signage doe not say anything along those lines.
There are a lot of success' with regards to the GPEOL appeals method.
Regards
Akumo

Yep, saying 'no GPEOL' will most likely win at POPLA - however be careful because CPM use signs that allege it's a contractual fee. POPLA appeals could be lost on this issue!

For examples of POPLA appeal wording, read the 'How to win at POPLA' hyperlink examples in post #3 of the NEWBIES top sticky thread. Draft yours but be aware it needs our input first if the sign isn't saying your parking was a 'breach' (I know the PCN did, it's the sign we need to check). So, show us:

- Your draft POPLA appeal BEFORE YOU SEND IT and

- the signs, the wording (and while you are taking photos, get a pic of the entrance (esp if no clear signage!).

We may need to add more to your POPLA appeal, about unfair penalties & the alleged charge not actually being a real contract fee for the 'service' of parking.

Akumo

Hi

I have taken some photo's of the car park and scanned the letter saying that my appeal had been unsuccessful but I am having problems uploading these, I have a drop box account and attempted to use the public folder but I cannot paste these links as it could be spam!

I then tried adding the pictures directly into this post but an error occurred stating that the text is too long, the largest file is 120kb and the smallest 70kb so they are not massive files.

If anyone has any advice on uploading or linking pictures it would be appreciated.

I'll continue reading the forum and the templates that have been posted here and hopefully get a suitable draft appeal up on Friday for someone to comment on.

Once again thank you for your help and support.

Akumo

ColliesCarer

Post the link leaving off the http://www bit and it can be reconstructed for you

Akumo

Thank you Collies

Hopefully the below will be visible:

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107678301/unsuccessful%20appeal.jpg
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107678301/Sign.jpg
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107678301/Sign%202.jpg
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107678301/Entrance%201.jpg
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107678301/Entrance%201.jpg

The only part from the above URL's that I have removed is
https://

Thank you

Akumo