Don't rely on the small claims court - it really is 'Buyer Beware'

fivetide

motorguy wrote: »

I dont agree.

We dont know the age of the car, the miles on the car and the price paid for the car. All of these influence your rights under the SOGA.

Also, the bulk of the above issues are clearly wear and tear related, therefore not covered under the SOGA.

It matters not.

We aren't going to see the OP again.

john1974z

Blimey, I wasn't expecting all those replies...

Yes, some issues could have been picked up on before purchase (if I'd known a mechanic I'd have taken one with me!). But of course the layman (me) who naively takes the mechanic/owners word about the condition of a car can miss these things. A "test drive" was offered and taken, but this turned out to be as a passenger, so no chance to pick up on the clutch. I didn't inspect the tyres - didn't think I needed to. It was very interesting to me to see that an Ebay business had flagged up the potential need for a clutch change on a same age/make/model car. The dealer I bought the car off knew full well of these issues - I know this because of the detailed report he gave me on the car I was trading in - but said nothing.

The car I bought was indeed old - 14 years, 88,000 miles, but was priced well above the Glass guide (I paid 1295 - glass guide gives trader price of 880 approx from memory - this is a Seat Cordoba) and, as per all the dealers claims, should have been properly maintained. The dealer told me the car would "come serviced". The garage I took it to for inspection and the independent engineer both agreed the clutch needed changing and tyres were dodgy (this was after car had been driven just 1500 miles over 4 months) plus other issues. The problem is of course that these separate issues add up to quite a bit of money compared to the cost of the car... I don't think anyone in their right mind would have paid what I did for that car if they'd had the engineer reports and knew what work was needed.

I think I was right to be p*ssed off with the dealer. I would have been better going to Ebay. I do agree with some comments however that there were elements of doubt re the small claims case, and perhaps my case shows some of the limitations. It does have to be really clear, e.g. illegal tyres as opposed to knackered ones that you'd definitely change if you knew about them; a totally gone clutch as opposed to one which is worn to the point it needs changing. I think the comments about limitations of CAB and solicitors advice are probably also on the money. If I'd had access to some good advice like "there is only a 30-40% chance of winning this case in court" then I wouldn't have bothered. But where do you get that from?

PS I have had one other small claims court experience in my life. A dodgy landlord stole mine and my housemates damage deposits many years ago. We won the case and got our money back. So I guess that's 1-1

motorguy

john1974z wrote: »

The car I bought was indeed old - 14 years, 88,000 miles, but was priced well above the Glass guide (I paid 1295 - glass guide gives trader price of 880 approx from memory - this is a Seat Cordoba) and, as per all the dealers claims, should have been properly maintained.

Sounds about right with a trade price of £880 for the retail price to be £1295.

john1974z wrote: »

The dealer told me the car would "come serviced". The garage I took it to for inspection and the independent engineer both agreed the clutch needed changing and tyres were dodgy (this was after car had been driven just 1500 miles over 4 months) plus other issues.

Servicing would NOT include a full check on the status of things like the clutch - chances are it was an oil and filter change.

Again, after 4 months for the clutch to go, you are in to the realms of acceptable wear and tear on a 12 year old car.

The way i had it explained to me by Citizens Advice (i was full time motor trading for a while so i'd ring them on my rights as a seller) was "if you had owned the car from brand new, would it be reasonable for this part to wear out at this point in its life?" Thinking of your clutch, then yes i'd say its reasonable for it to wear out at approx 90K miles.

Dont forget, the SOGA is about "faults" not wear and tear.

john1974z wrote: »

The problem is of course that these separate issues add up to quite a bit of money compared to the cost of the car... I don't think anyone in their right mind would have paid what I did for that car if they'd had the engineer reports and knew what work was needed.

But you owned the car for four months? Had there been real and proper failure / excessive wear on the clutch the day you picked the car up then yes, you'd have had a case, but to wait four months?

I cant see how you felt you had a case on the clutch if you were able to drive the car for four months?

Same with the tyres, over inflation or just general old age on the tyres could have caused the cracks in the meantime.

john1974z wrote: »

I think I was right to be p*ssed off with the dealer. I would have been better going to Ebay.

Yes. Although would you have been able to get the car "just down the road" and would you have been able to trade your old car in? No. Probably not.

Realistically you bought a car "worth" £800 for £1295. You would have been better finding a car being sold by its owner (rather than a trader or some low life masquerading as a private customer) and have got a similar car for £950.

But realistically on a car of the age you bought, quite a percentage of the cars price on a dealers forecourt is going to be their margin (to include their costs).

john1974z wrote: »

I do agree with some comments however that there were elements of doubt re the small claims case, and perhaps my case shows some of the limitations. It does have to be really clear, e.g. illegal tyres as opposed to knackered ones that you'd definitely change if you knew about them; a totally gone clutch as opposed to one which is worn to the point it needs changing. I think the comments about limitations of CAB and solicitors advice are probably also on the money. If I'd had access to some good advice like "there is only a 30-40% chance of winning this case in court" then I wouldn't have bothered. But where do you get that from?

Yes, therein lies the problem - and its a BIG issue on here, as i said previously. People put too much weight on what Citizens Advice "advise" and they in no way ever "put their money where their mouth is" in terms of paying for your court case.

Also, just because we as customers feel aggrieved about a purchase or how a problem was handled, doesnt make us "right" in the eyes of the law.

I used to sell quite a few wee cars at around the £1,000 price point, but i got out of it because to be honest customers expectations have went sky high in terms of what they deem "their rights" to be and also you're competing against ebay and gumtree part time sellers who'll meet their victims, sorry customers, at Tescos and tell you their name isnt on the v5 "because their wife doesnt like it / selling it for their brother / whatever", having doctored the car up to make it look presentable.

I was bemused at a recent advert from a low life trader masquerading as a private seller who had in his advert "only selling because my wife wont drive an automatic", but he'd been selling another car the previous week under the same number with wording "only selling because my wife wants an automatic"

Far too much hassle selling cars at this price point, and sadly, as you've found out, no "guarantees" of a quality purchase when you do buy from a trader at this price point either.

fivetide

john1974z wrote: »

Blimey, I wasn't expecting all those replies...

Typical!

Sorry to have doubted you hah.

burlington6

You're a dreamer OP.

john1974z

Just checked the Glass cert. The dealer retail price was given as £880. So I definitely paid over the odds. Could have bought 3 or 4 off Ebay for that price

The tyres kept going flat from the start and the clutch was a bit stiff, I guess heavily greased up (the seller is a master of the patch up and make it better for a short time) - it degraded from there. The turning point being when one of the dodgy tyres blew out while driving - that's when I took the car for a proper check. Lot of too-ing and fro-ing, discussions, letters, "mediation", greasing bits of the car up, denying issues, court hearings etc. from that point.

motorguy

john1974z wrote: »

Just checked the Glass cert. The dealer retail price was given as £880. So I definitely paid over the odds. Could have bought 3 or 4 off Ebay for that price

Glass's Guide is just that - a Guide.

I would say you paid a fair price at the time from a dealer, given he has overheads, took your trade in, etc.

You're not comparing apples with apples saying you could buy from from ebay from the other end of the country from someone who may or may not be who they say they are.

And likewise, you probably wouldnt have got anything more reliable.

john1974z wrote: »

The tyres kept going flat from the start and the clutch was a bit stiff, I guess heavily greased up (the seller is a master of the patch up and make it better for a short time) - it degraded from there. The turning point being when one of the dodgy tyres blew out while driving - that's when I took the car for a proper check. Lot of too-ing and fro-ing, discussions, letters, "mediation", greasing bits of the car up, denying issues, court hearings etc. from that point.

See my comment earlier about tyres leaking around the rims. Also, if there were issues with tyres going soft, how did you not spot the "dodgy tyres" at that point.

As a clutch wears, it will get heavier. It would be unlikely you could "grease" a clutch to make the pedal lighter. Sounds like normal wear and tear as a clutch wears out through use and age.

arcon5

Out of curiosity, what was your particulars of claim and what was his defence?

arcon5

In my experience once a clutch starts giving up the ghost it isn't long before just the skeleton is left.

Clutches typically do 60-80k miles in my experience. Many other components also start reaching their end of life in the 80-100k region. Dangerous/expensive age.
I don't think the clutch did to bad.

In the price range your buying it may jut be worth buying a sub £1k car with good mot remaining, thus making them quite disposable if they suddenly become money pits

john1974z

The clutch probably did fine. It was the not telling me it was at the end of it's life that was the problem. Anyway...

The question for me now is, where were you guys when I needed you 6 months ago when I started the dispute? Or even 12 months ago before I bought the bl**dy car? Seriously though, I think the advice on here has been helpful (albeit in retrospect, but that's not your fault!) - it's the kind of advice you don't get from CAB unfortunately. I didn't think anyone would reply to my post, but lots of people have chipped in. I hope more car buying novices and small claims beginners come on to the forum and have a look around and ask some questions before deciding what to do.