Urgent help please - buyer used fraudulent card :-(

stormCat99

Hi guys,

I don't usually come on this board but you seem so knowledgeable I thought one of you may be able to help me.

Today I received an email from PayPal, stating:

"We recently notified you that one of your buyers used an account that has
been associated with possible unauthorised credit card use. Please help us
resolve this case for you as soon as possible by reviewing the transaction
details and the next steps to take described below.

As you may know, credit card companies under certain circumstances may hold
sellers liable for chargebacks unless they can prove they sufficiently
fulfilled the terms of the order. PayPal understands that chargebacks can
be frustrating and we're here to help you work through this situation. With
your cooperation, we will assist you in disputing this chargeback. "

Apart from the fact that this is the first I've heard of it, I am now totally stuck as to what to do next. I'm understanding this email to say that the buyer used a fraudulent credit card (for £160) and I am now liable (?)

Looking on Paypal, I am required to make a response. The only options though are:

1. I can provide tracking information

Obviously at the time I sent the item special delivery, and waited until he had confirmed receipt. But then as I had no further use for the receipt, I threw it away.

2. The buyer has already been refunded and I can provide proof of the previous refund.

Obviously not the case!

3. Accept liability.

Definitely not the case as I have done nothing wrong!

4. Provide evidence for dispute.

What evidence am I supposed to provide?

Basically, I'm a little confused as to what I am being asked to do, and what I *should* do.

I have been in touch with the local delivery office for where I sent the item to, and they have been able to locate the records :-) The guy is currently trying to find more info and is calling me back in a bit.

Also, if the payment was indeed with a fraudulent card, are PayPal able to force me to pay the money back?

Thanks very much for any help or advice you can give me?

g33za

you will need to provide the tracking number etc, if it was a phone that you sent i'd suggest you have it barred until you get it returned. Unfortunately i think this is where problems will start in order to get the item back and getting funds back. I suggest you check the ebay/paypal help pages and see if there is any info. Alternatively check one of the paypalsucks websites that should have some info about the processes.

stormCat99

Update : A very kind man at the delivery office has just given me the tracking number (even though he wasn't meant to), so I'm very grateful.

No the item wasn't a phone, it was a minidisc player.

I've also just managed to get through to PayPal on the phone. He seemed to be saying provided I met the Seller Protection requirements, I'd be refunded. But was rather vague about timescales so I'm still rather uncertain about this :mad:

trace-j

boots_babe wrote:

Update : A very kind man at the delivery office has just given me the tracking number (even though he wasn't meant to), so I'm very grateful.

No the item wasn't a phone, it was a minidisc player.

I've also just managed to get through to PayPal on the phone. He seemed to be saying provided I met the Seller Protection requirements, I'd be refunded. But was rather vague about timescales so I'm still rather uncertain about this :mad:

Excellent that the Postie helped you out. Going back to your 1st post, I can't believe Paypal wanted you to accept liability for the fraudulent transaction. You're out of pocket and no longer have the minidisc player. Hope you get your money back.

Its just wrong for ebay to drag their feet over an obvious fraud and then try to take this user to court for sweet FA.

stormCat99

Another update on this.....I am now SO confused

Checked back on my PayPal account online, and the Resolution Centre now shows the status as 'Resolved - Covered by SPP'. Which is good you may think.

Well so did I, except that I then received an email from them to say that they'd made a decision, and I was NOT covered by SPP!!!! But gave no reason why. Then got another email to say they were doing a funds transfer from my account to get the money back :mad:

Rang them up, was told there should be a reason on the email why I'm not covered by SPP. They said they'd get someone to email me with a reason. Great.

Got the email just now. They say I'm not covered as I've not provided proof of receipt. Well I've given them the Royal Mail Special Delivery tracking number, which is the proof they request (site says must be trackable online, which it is). They've definitely got this number as it shows on the Resolution Centre. So how come they're still saying they've not got it?

Just tried to call them again but closed. Will try tomorrow but bet they're now closed till Tuesday so I will have to worry until then :mad:

Sent them yet another email in the meantime, reiterating that I've sent the tracking number, and that I meet all SPP conditions.

It's so frustrating that all I can do is sit back and see what, if anything, they decide to do next. Why do they give me such conflicting information? I'm so confused and rather concerned as to what will happen next :-(

stormCat99

trace-j, just read the link you put in your post. Now that really IS ridiculous. Has the world gone mad or is it just us?

divadee

boots babe they should be open tomorrow and monday they claim they are open 365 days a year.

I hope you get it resolved hun, keep us informed.

trace-j

Another suggestion that may help. When you are a registered user of ebay you have to agree to use their terms and conditions.

There must me some terms in writing on the site relating to the SPP. I thought you had to have a minimum feedback or something? I'll have a look.

If you can find something in writing what these terms are and prove you have satisfied them, you could effectively sue ebay for breach of contract. If you got the tracking number can you request a copy of the signature? Used to be able to upon request.

It sounds like ebay are looking for excuses not to refund. The issue isn't to do with the item not being delivered, but a fraudulent card being used.

Found this guidance in paypal re SPP actual terms and conditions are here which is what you and ebay must comply with.

Main term is 4.e:

The seller provides reasonable proof of postage from an independent shipper. The posted goods must be trackable online. Proof of postage should show that the address to which the item has been posted corresponds to the address on the Transaction Details page (see 4.d above). If a reversal occurs, you will need to provide PayPal with the name of your chosen postal company and the online reference number. For your convenience, PayPal provides a list of popular and currently approved services offering proof of posting.

4.d says

The seller posts the item to the address listed on the Transaction Details page. If a transaction is listed as “Seller Protection Policy Eligible” on the Transaction Details page (see 4.c above), sellers can post to the address on the Transaction Details page, regardless of whether the address is “confirmed” or not. This is not the case for a seller posting to a US buyer. When posting goods to a US buyer, the seller must ensure that they post to the Confirmed Address of the US buyer for the transaction to be “Seller Protection Policy Eligible”. However, in other instances, UK sellers may find they have transacted with buyers who do not have a Confirmed address but who are still “Seller Protection Policy Eligible”.

Sticking point is that the proof of postage needs to correspond with the transaction details page. Doesn't the online tracking only provide basic info 'delivered in 'X' on 'xx/xx/xx'? You need a copy of your original slip:mad:

nsrjo1

I have raised this point regarding the fact that Royal Mail's recorded delivery DOES NOT provide you with cover under Paypal's Seller Protection Policy on this board before having fallen foul of Paypal's decision on this area once before. I belive it is a glaring hole and one which literally thousands of people lay themselves open to losing out from given that probably 90% of items sold on eBay are sent recorded delivery.

As trace-j says the terms and conditions are very strict and clear in that the track and trace details must comply with the following "The posted goods must be trackable online. Proof of postage should show that the address to which the item has been posted corresponds to the address on the Transaction Details page".

What Paypal mean is that that you must be able to prove online that the address you sent the goods to was the address that was on the Paypal details. The crucial word here is "ONLINE".

Unfortunately you cannot do this with Royal Mail services as it only allows you to prove that the goods were delivered on x date at y time and signed for z. It does not and cannot prove what address you sent them to online. The only proof you have of the address details is the slip that you fill out and retain. In Paypal's view this is not sufficient as it does not comply with their terms and condition stating that this information must be retrievable online and you will therefore find yourself not complying with their terms and condition and thus not being covered under the SPP.

Paypal furthermore make it even more unclear by continuing "For your convenience, PayPal provides a list of popular and currently approved services offering proof of posting.". If you look at the list they do include Royal Mail recorded services. However, yet again, you need to read the words they have used very carefully. It actually says they list approved services offering proof of posting (which recorded delivery does provide as you keep the slip proving you've posted the item). It does not say that these services comply with their previous statement that they also provide online track and traceability.

I think this is misleading on Paypal's part, but at the end of the day the terms and conditions are quite clear if you read them carefully and correctly.

To comply with them you actually have to send using a courier service such as Fedex, UPS, DHL etc that allows you to input the buyer's name and address details online and track and trace the shipment online. For the vast majority of people out there selling small value items this just isn't cost effective. Unfortunately there are a growing number of individuals out there that know of this loophole in Paypal's service and exploit it.

richto

I always scan my manifests, and upload them to my website - and send Praypal the link. Then they can track the item on the City Link website - and verify the address from the manifest - all online.

trace-j

Following on from what nsrjo says there is something called the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (UTCCRs).

As stated on the OFT website

The UTCCRs can protect you from terms that reduce your statutory or common law rights and from terms that seek to impose unfair burdens on you over and above the ordinary rules of law.

It could be argued that ebays terms causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations under the contract, to the detriment of consumers.

The plain language requirement

According to the UTCCRs, a standard term must be expressed in plain and intelligible language. A term is open to challenge if it could put you at a disadvantage because you are not clear about its meaning - even if its meaning could be worked out by a lawyer. If there is doubt as to what a term means, the meaning most favourable to the consumer will apply.

So for ebay to say Royal Mail services are caught by SPP, they can't elsewhere say they aren't- not plain terms