J.A.S PCN at Staples.

Garth88

Hi I Received a ticket on the wind screen of my company car (leased) on 26/02/2014 after I parked in a Staples car park. The PCN was from J.A.S. I needed paper for my printer but crossed the road to pop into another shop first. Upon coming back i saw the parking charge and wan't best pleased. But as I needed paper from work I went into staples anyway to purchase the paper. I still have the receipt.

I have read the sticky thread but was unsure about what action to take as the car is leased. Would I need to email J.A.S ? or write to the copying my address in to ? also what template would be applicable.

I am sorry if this had been dealt with else where, but I hopeless with navigating forums. It has taken me half an hour to find out how to start a new thread.

Thanks in advance,

Garth

Redx

as its a leased car and you were driving you need to deal with this as the driver so read this NEWBIES thread
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=4816822

but follow the advice about hooking the PPC (JAS) in and appeal as driver , denying the debt etc and hopefully they will deny your appeal and issue you with a popla code (they are unlikely to cancel at this stage) (this is the bottom of post #1 in the newbies thread that explains this, the template is in the middle of post #1)

so you deal with this asap and send in an appeal to JAS (by email ?) using the template in the newbies thread but written as driver and not keeper

Garth88

Would I be right in assuming I would use this template:

But changing the registered keeper to driver?

Would I mention the PCN on the wind screen, or follow the remainder of the template with no alterations?

Also how would I delete the other posts on the other thread? (hopeless with forums).


Dear {company name of this member of ''PPC World''},

PCN number xxxxxxx
As the registered keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass

Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your recent Notice failed to make the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).

Take formal note:

(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.

(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.

Yours,

Redx

I would add a note mentioning you are responding to the windscreen notice and change the wording to driver and not keeper, so they are quite sure its the driver responding to the notice to driver (the windscreen notice)

then send it asap to JAS

as for editing, press edit on your posts and press delete , or press advanced and then delete , but concentrate on appealing, not forum use at this time

the problem with you having posted in that other thread is now other members are replying to you making the thread hijack even worse

Garth88

My apologies I have deleted my posts now, hope I haven't caused too many problems. Redx, should I include my address in the email?

Redx

Garth88 wrote: »

My apologies I have deleted my posts now, hope I haven't caused too many problems. Redx, should I include my address in the email?

no, I wouldnt as you want them to respond , so give them the ticket reference and date only , you are trying to get a popla code or cancellation, not hand everything to them on a plate

they would have to go to the DVLA for RK details and that means it goes to the leasing company , so at this stage you are trying to get them to deal with you , one method of doing so is if they respond asking you for details or if they issue the popla code

the last thing you want is them ignoring you and contacting the RK

so use any old made up google or yahoo email addy for now , the less they know the better at this stage

Garth88

I Recieved a reply from JAS, response is below. What sort of case do I use for popla? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Dear, xxxx

Thank you for your email. The reason you were issued the parking charge notice was because you parked your vehicle and left the premises and went out, which is not authorised. When the parking charge notice was issued you were not inside Staples/Carphone Warehouse.

Staples/Carphone Warehouse car park is only for customers whilst using the premises. Our car park terms and conditions are clearly written on the 5 sign boards that are displayed throughout the car park.

Our sign boards clearly state below.

• Vehicle left in the car park before or after using either premises.
• Restrictions apply 24/7 including weekends and bank holidays.
• No waiting / no turning / no overnight parking / this is not a pick up or drop off site. Vehicles parked at the driver’s risk.

I would like to remind you that when you parked your vehicle on the site in question, you contractually agreed to abide by the terms and conditions attached to that site. As stated, these terms and conditions are adequately displayed on signage at the site. If you did not wish to abide by these terms and conditions, nor accept the charges incurred should they be breached, you were under no obligation to park on the property in question. Please be aware that our signage meets or exceeds the requirements of the British Parking Associations codes of conduct.

Therefore you have breached the terms and conditions of the Car Park. So unfortunately on this occasion your appeal is unsuccessful.

You now have a number of options from which to choose

1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the prevailing price of £56.40 within 14 days. Please note that after this time the discounted rate will no longer apply and the Parking Charge Notice will rise to £94.

2. Make an appeal to POPLA – The Independent Appeals Service by making your appeal online at xxxxxxxx.

3. Please note that if you wish to appeal to POPLA, you will lose the right to pay the charge at the discounted rate of £56.40, and should POPLA’s decision not go in your favor you will be required to pay the full amount of £94. If you opt to pay the parking charge you will be unable to appeal to POPLA.

If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

Coupon-mad

I Received a reply from JAS, response is below. What sort of case do I use for popla? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Same as you will find on other JAS threads - I am certain at least one recent thread has a typed-out example of a tailored POPLA appeal for this scenario. 'Search this forum' (using the heading above the sticky threads on page one, next to forum tools) for the keyword 'Staples JAS' which will find lots of threads.

If you can't find one by searching for 'Staples JAS' then look at the examples in post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread under 'How to win at POPLA'.

Garth88

Hi,

I have had a look through but can't see any templates for JAS. I am not sure as to what grounds I am appealing to them on. Would anyone be able to advise me?

Redx

so a quick forum search in the search box using the search tool and the search word staples doesnt find this one by dave.b ?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4868096

Garth88

So would I be correct in assuming I would use this template but without mention section 8 about the failing to provide a verification number as mine works? When making my appeal do I tick:

A: I was not improperly parked.

B: The parking charge (ticket) exceeded the appropriate amount.

C: The vehicle was stolen.

: I am not liable for the parking charge.

Also do I include my Staples receipt from when I returned from leaving the car park?

My POPLA appeal darft what do you thing
APPEAL RE: PPC Name CHARGE ******/******,*********
CAR PARK **/**/2013, VEHICLE REG: **** ***

I am the registered Keeper of the above vehicle and I am appealing against above charge. I contend that I am not liable for the parking charge on the following grounds and would ask that they are all considered.
1 UNCLEAR, INADEQUATE AND NON-COMPLIANT SIGNAGE

Due to their high position, overall small size and the barely legible size of the small print, the signs in this car park are very hard to read, understand and no notices at all are positioned near the entrance or exists to any of the shops.

I contend that the signs and any core parking terms JAS are relying upon were too small for any driver to see, read or understand. I request that POPLA check the Operator's evidence and signage map/photos on this point and compare the signs to the BPA Code of Practice requirements. I contend that the signs on this land (wording, position, clarity) do not comply and fail to properly warn/inform the driver of the terms and any consequences for breach, as in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Martin Cutts, 2011 and Waltham Forest v Vine [CCRTF 98/1290/B2])
2 CONTRACT WITH THE LANDOWNER - NOT COMPLIANT WITH THE BPA CODE OF PRACTICE AND NO LEGAL STATUS TO OFFER PARKING OR ENFORCE CHARGES

JAS do not own this car park and are assumed to be merely agents for the owner or legal occupier. In their Notice and in the rejection letters, JAS have not provided me with any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from a driver or keeper, since they do not own nor have any interest or assignment of title of the land in question.

I would also request that POPLA to please check whether JAS have provided a full copy of the actual contemporaneous, signed & dated contract with the landowner/occupier (not just a signed slip of paper saying it exists or someone has witnessed it) and check that it specifically enables this Operator to pursue parking charges in their own name and through the court system. I say that any contract is not compliant with the requirements set out in the BPA Code of Practice.

I do not believe that the Operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park, or indeed the legal standing to allege a breach of contract. I refer the Adjudicator to the recent Appeal Court decision in the case of Vehicle Control Services (VCS) v HMRC ( EWCA Civ 186 [2013]): The principal issue in this case was to determine the actual nature of Private Parking Charges. It was stated that: "If those charges are consideration for a supply of goods or services, they will be subject to VAT. If, on the other hand, they are damages they will not be." The ruling of the Court was that "I would hold, therefore, that the monies that VCS collected from motorists by enforcement of parking charges were not consideration moving from the landowner in return for the supply of parking services." In other words, they are not, as the Operator asserts, a contractual term. If they were a contractual term, the Operator would have to provide a VAT invoice, to provide a means of payment at the point of supply, and to account to HMRC for the VAT element of the charge. The Appellant asserts that these requirements have not been met. It must therefore be concluded that the Operator's charges are in fact damages, or penalties, for which the Operator must demonstrate his actual, or pre-estimated, losses, as set out above.

JAS also make reference in their appeal refusal of 7/1/2014 to “seek to recover the monies owed to us” and makes no reference to the Landlord at all.


3 NO CONTRACT WITH THE DRIVER

There is no contract between PCC and the driver, but even if there was a contract then it is unfair as defined in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.. So the requirements of forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, certainty of terms, etc, were not satisfied.
4 UNFAIR TERMS

The charge that was levied is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e) "Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation." Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) states that: "A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer" and 5(2) states: "A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term."
5 UNREASONABLE

The charge that was levied is an unreasonable indemnity clause pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 which provides that: "A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.”
6 NO BREACH OF CONTRACT AND NO GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE OF LOSS

There was no parking charge levied, the car park is “free”. On the date of the claimed loss it was only at xx% capacity and there was no physical damage caused. There can have been no loss arising from this incident. Neither can JAS lawfully include their operational day-to-day running costs in any 'loss' claimed. I contend there can be no loss shown whatsoever; no pre-estimate (prior to starting to 'charge for breaches' at this site) has been prepared or considered in advance.

The charge that was levied is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable) against me. The initial charge is arbitrary and in no way proportionate to any alleged breach of contract. Nor does it even equate to local council charges of £5.00 for all day parking. This is all the more so for the additional charges which operator states accrues after 28 days of non-payment. This would also apply to any mentioned costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed a court order. I would question that if a charge can be discounted by about 45% by early payment that it is unreasonable to begin with.
7 UNLAWFUL PENALTY CHARGE

Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of contract has been alleged for a free car park, it can only remain a fact that this 'charge' is an attempt at extorting an unlawful charge to impersonate a parking ticket. This is similar to the decisions in several County Court cases such as Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008), also OBServices v Thurlow (review, February 2011), Parking Eye v Smith (Manchester County Court December 2011) and UKCPS v Murphy (April 2012) .

The operator could state the letter as an invoice or request for monies, but chooses to use the wording “CONTRACTUAL PARKING CHARGE NOTICE” in an attempt to be deemed an official parking fine similar to what the Police and Council Wardens issue.
8 FAILED TO COMPLY WITH INITIAL REQUEST FOR A POPLA CODE

I contacted JAS on 3/1/2014 and clearly stated that I denied all liability to their company and required a POPLA verification code for me to appeal independently as per the BPA Code of Practice.They sent me a POPLA verification code which was wrong or bogus.I emailed them on 17/1/2014 telling them the verification code was wrong or bogus and emailed BPA telling them the same. They went on to further attempt to bully me by “ advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case, the ability to pay the parking charge at the reduced rate will be at end. If you opt to pay the parking charge you will be unable to appeal to POPLA.” “If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.”
SUMMARY

On the basis of all the 8 points I have raised, this 'charge' fails to meet the standards set out in paragraph 19 of the BPA CoP and also fails to comply with basic contract law.
Yours xxxxxxx