starting a 19L fish tank

~Chameleon~

senileturtle wrote: »

Remember, fish naturally swim miles, not metres - they're habitats are huge. Also, don't buy animals from pet shops, they're mass bred and often have poor health and poor genetics leading to genetic based health problems. If you are going to have fish it is better to have a pond and to have one's that are needing a new home. That way you're not contributing to the mass breeding of them.

This all depends on your definition of pond. I've seen some ponds that actually have less volume than that of a household aquarium!

Froglet

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

This all depends on your definition of pond. I've seen some ponds that actually have less volume than that of a household aquarium!

So have I,and they are worse because without the minimum two and a half feet depth they will freeze solid in a bad winter.End of fish.Some outdoor ponds get more neglected too because they are not necessarily seen every day like a tank would be.

I am on my fourth pond now, it is 1800 gallons and my fish live in the lap of luxury but it has taken 20 years and a LOT of money to get there.And hubby says it is DEFINITELY the last one!!

londonTiger

Froglet wrote: »

All varities of common goldfish,of which there are several are really only happy in a pond and will thrive because of the space.However there are also several varieties of fancy goldfish and they would die in the first cold winter if kept in a pond.

It is only research in the right place that defines the different types and their needs.But even fancy goldfish need a large tank,they are messy creatures and will suffer in the small tanks that pet stores and many online shops sell with no regard whatsoever for the welfare of them.All they are interested in is a profit at the expense of the poor fish, trapped and slowly poisoned by their own waste.

If the petshop has high turnover it shouldn't be a problem I would imagine. Balance has to be struck between breeding them and selling them profitaby and welfare.

If fish supplers kept 10 goldfish in a 100 gallon tank. That will take up a LOT of room and will raise the prices up to £30 a goldfish.

There's a reason why some fish are so expensive and others are cheap.

Danios are £1.50 because they're hardy and breed fast. Betta are £10 each because they need to be segregated from the rest of the fish and need individual attention.

Seen a few fish up the the £30 and £40 region preusmably becasuse they require individual attention and special breeding requirements.

If goldfish were treated the same they too would cost £30 or £40 each. As it happens goldfish can take some "hardship" at the fish shop and still live a long and happy life after owner takes it home.

Froglet

londonTiger wrote: »

If the petshop has high turnover it shouldn't be a problem I would imagine. Balance has to be struck between breeding them and selling them profitaby and welfare.

If fish supplers kept 10 goldfish in a 100 gallon tank. That will take up a LOT of room and will raise the prices up to £30 a goldfish.

There's a reason why some fish are so expensive and others are cheap.

Danios are £1.50 because they're hardy and breed fast. Betta are £10 each because they need to be segregated from the rest of the fish and need individual attention.

Seen a few fish up the the £30 and £40 region preusmably becasuse they require individual attention and special breeding requirements.

If goldfish were treated the same they too would cost £30 or £40 each. As it happens goldfish can take some "hardship" at the fish shop and still live a long and happy life after owner takes it home.

In my post you quoted above,i meant the small tanks and bowls that the fish shops sell to customers.Not the ones they keep the fish in at the shop.There are a lot in one tank on the premises because they usually have a very large and capable filtration system linking all the tanks.

I have always maintained that if the housing for animals,birds and fish were as cheap as the creatures that have to exist in them,and the living creatures were expensive there would not be nearly as much suffering.

But that sadly is never going to happen.

londonTiger

Ok understood.

I bought a Juwel rekord 800 (80cm long, 35cm wide, 40cm tall).

Just the glass on ebay for £21. I can easily build the hood myself and add the lighting, heating and filteration I need. Probably buy them used to save money.

A bit of a confession here. I didn't like the idea of fishless cycling and I was a bit impatient so I just bought 3 danios to put into the 19L tank. I actually wanted to buy just one danio to create the ammonia for the bacteria to get the cycle going but the petsathome sales clerk sold be 3 apparantly they sell in 3s and 4s only. I've added the dechlorinator and bacteria a day before putting the fish it- bacteria bloom just cleared today.

I'm going to transfer the danios onto the larger tank - But I need to plan the gravel, plants, backdrop first and then cycle it.

Froglet

You didn't like the idea of fishless cycling ,even though all the experts and people who care about fish have proven beyond doubt it is the only way to avoid the fish suffering.But impatience and an "i know better attitude " wins .So now the fish will suffer instead.

If you do still want to try and understand WHY fishless cycling is now considered the norm,here is an explanation of the process.

The definition of cycling is the process of growing bacteria to process ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. With no ammonia the tank will not cycle. It basically just means spending four weeks with a tank full of tap water which remains pretty much as it was when it came out of the tap.

Look at it logically - if the bacteria that eat ammonia are to grow they need to be supplied with ammonia to eat. If there is no ammonia in the water, they starve to death. You then have no bacteria. After four weeks the levels of ammonia nitrite and nitrate will look fine on test results because no ammonia has ever been added to the tank.

If you put fish in at that point they will immediately begin producing ammonia, but there will be no bacteria to deal with it. The fish will then be swimming in their own waste for however long it takes for the bacteria to grow colonies big enough to cope - 2 months at least. Result - sick, suffering and dying fish.

If you cycle fishlessly by dosing with ammonia this does not happen. Think of the ammonia as a "pretend" fish pooing in the tank and allowing the bacteria that deal with it to grow. When enough bacteria grow to deal with the "waste" (ammonia dosed by you) from the "pretend" fish that means there are enough to cope with real fish too so it's safe to put them in.

But of course it won't happen to you.Which is precisely why we experienced fishkeepers over at Practical Fishkeeping sometimes feel they want to bang their heads against a brick wall.

But,prove me wrong.It is not too late to take the fish back,on a temporary basis until you get the larger tank ready.In the meantime you could start the process in the smaller tank and transfer the filter medium to a larger filter.

If not please don't come back here in a week or so's time and ask why your fish are looking sick and dying.

Bailey101

Some people need to realise that despite the fact that fish can't bark at you or rub their head on you, they are still living creatures and deserve to be treated as such. Just because you're too impatient to wait for your pretty ornament (which is exactly how you are treating the fish) to be finished, do you think it's ok to be cruel and make the fish suffer in the hope that it'll be fine in the long run?

I really do despair of some people, you've had a lot of excellent advice from experienced fish keepers and yet you still went ahead and did exactly what you were advised not too. There are no words sometimes.

londonTiger

I'm a beginner. I am going to make mistakes. None of you would have gone into this hobby if you hadn't made beginners mistakes and learnt along the way.

I would avoid fish suffering as much as I think is realistic but fish are not dogs or cats. Fish don't feel pain the same way mammels do.

If you decide to try out a new sport, say football. You dont read an encyclopedia on football buy all the most expensive equipment. Get a nutritionist to help you get the best nutrityion intake. get a football coach to train you etc.

You'll buy boots and a ball, get a few people together and go for a kickabout.

If you had to read copious amounts of fish manuals, get all the chemical test kits to check for ammonia, nitrates, bacteria. Then set everything up and wait 3 months running an empty tank just to get started. Nobody would ever keep fish. They'll get bored and give up from the beginning.

Most of you probably started off by winning a gold fish at a funfair and then taking it home and putting it in a vase and the learning began there.

Bailey101

Are you serious?

I have never been intentionally cruel to any animal, and when I got my first tank it cycled for probably a lot longer than necessary because I was so keen to get it right first time and not experiment on the poor fish!!

I really can't believe that you're for real, no semi-intelligent person would compare a living animal to a football. You're either a troll or you need professional help.

londonTiger

get of your high horse, if you practiced what you preached you would not imprison an animal period.

I compared fish with cats and dogs.

Football was an analogy, beginners don't get everything right. You take things in baby steps.