Referred for Sanction (JSA)

joebolton

Firstly I think you need to establish the reason you have been sent to the decision maker.You seem to think it is for Activley Seeking Work,(ASE) but from a look at your post, and the fact you were given an interview on another day, I think you have been sent up for Fail to Attend.(FTA)
One of the reasons is you say you lost your temper.Did you leave the building without giving a signature ?
Did they give you a letter , an ES48 ?
What does it say on that ?

missapril75

SIrving wrote: »

Yup, I know the Jobcentre staff would never consider the big picture (even if, in an ideal world, they would). My concern is how anal the Decision Maker will be.

How much can the advisors do these days for preventing things getting that far?

When I was doing the job, if something said to me seemed reasonable in all the circumstances about why something wasn't done there was something I could just record on the computer system and that was the end of it.

SJI85

joebolton wrote: »

Firstly I think you need to establish the reason you have been sent to the decision maker.You seem to think it is for Activley Seeking Work,(ASE) but from a look at your post, and the fact you were given an interview on another day, I think you have been sent up for Fail to Attend.(FTA)
One of the reasons is you say you lost your temper.Did you leave the building without giving a signature ?
Did they give you a letter , an ES48 ?
What does it say on that ?

The losing my temper was at the end of the second appointment, when it became clear they were referring me to a DM, not the first.

I'm led to believe (after the event) that the second appointment was simply for "evidence gathering" for the sanction referral. This is what the Customer Service Manager told me afterwards. Though, before the appointment, I was given the impression it was just a second opportunity to provide my job diary and to sign on.

I "lost my temper" at the end of the appointment, when all that could have been said was probably said. I did sign today, before I lost my temper. It was the member of staff who ended the appointment today as he "wouldn't tolerate being abused" (I said he, actually meaning the system, was a disgrace). Not my finest moment.

No letter/ES48 was given.

It's very difficult to actually get clear information from the jobcentre. The Customer Services Manager himself said that no information about what an appointment is for is given to claimants. So it's left me rather confused and perplexed. I felt ambushed today, if I'm honest, and then picked on. This, and the fact that I do work my backside off with voluntary work (and normal jobsearching) is what led me to become frustrated.

All I know is that the cause of this is not producing a proper job diary for my original sign on appointment yesterday (Wednesday), and this is why I've been referred to a DM. Whether it's ASE or FTA I don't know.

missapril75 wrote: »

How much can the advisors do these days for preventing things getting that far?

When I was doing the job, if something said to me seemed reasonable in all the circumstances about why something wasn't done there was something I could just record on the computer system and that was the end of it.

I believe it's still possible to record this information. However, instead of being humane and using common sense, including being a bit more flexible and understanding to those with disabilities, it seems some advisors are just far too trigger happy and go straight for a DM referral.

Interestingly this is the second time I've been unable to produce my job search activity. The first time was when I recorded it using UJ, forgetting that I'd previously withdrawn my consent for the DWP to view my account. As a result, when they sat down to look, they couldn't access it. In this instance the member of staff just asked me for a verbal record and gave me the benefit of the doubt. Apparently I was "lucky" that day, as I should have been referred to a DM. It was careless of me, admittedly.

bill_on_line

rogerblack wrote: »

As a general point - 3 out of 4 appeals against DWP sanctions succeed.

Hi Roger


When you say appeal, do you mean to DM or Tribunal?

mro

SJI85 wrote: »

The losing my temper was at the end of the second appointment, when it became clear they were referring me to a DM, not the first.

I'm led to believe (after the event) that the second appointment was simply for "evidence gathering" for the sanction referral. This is what the Customer Service Manager told me afterwards. Though, before the appointment, I was given the impression it was just a second opportunity to provide my job diary and to sign on.

I "lost my temper" at the end of the appointment, when all that could have been said was probably said. I did sign today, before I lost my temper. It was the member of staff who ended the appointment today as he "wouldn't tolerate being abused" (I said he, actually meaning the system, was a disgrace). Not my finest moment.

No letter/ES48 was given.

It's very difficult to actually get clear information from the jobcentre. The Customer Services Manager himself said that no information about what an appointment is for is given to claimants. So it's left me rather confused and perplexed. I felt ambushed today, if I'm honest, and then picked on. This, and the fact that I do work my backside off with voluntary work (and normal jobsearching) is what led me to become frustrated.

All I know is that the cause of this is not producing a proper job diary for my original sign on appointment yesterday (Wednesday), and this is why I've been referred to a DM. Whether it's ASE or FTA I don't know.



I believe it's still possible to record this information. However, instead of being humane and using common sense, including being a bit more flexible and understanding to those with disabilities, it seems some advisors are just far too trigger happy and go straight for a DM referral.

Interestingly this is the second time I've been unable to produce my job search activity. The first time was when I recorded it using UJ, forgetting that I'd previously withdrawn my consent for the DWP to view my account. As a result, when they sat down to look, they couldn't access it. In this instance the member of staff just asked me for a verbal record and gave me the benefit of the doubt. Apparently I was "lucky" that day, as I should have been referred to a DM. It was careless of me, admittedly.

I don't think it has to a written record, that is what happens by default & is generally easier for everyone.

They shouldn't refer you to DM without checking verbally, as they could be just be wasting everybody's time.

mro

SIrving wrote: »

Hello everyone,

The thread title should really say referred for possible sanction/to a DM.

I hope people are able to read this long post and provide feedback. It would be greatly appreciated. I'm really desperate.

I am claiming JSA, though should be signing off to start a new job soon. I have dyspraxia (among other disabilities/health conditions) and, as a result, record my job diary on the computer, print it off, and hand it over. I find the booklets too impractical and not suitable as I cannot write well due to the dyspraxia. Due to organisational difficulties (again, dyspraxia) I'm also likely to lose booklets.

Unfortunately yesterday my laptop broke right at the time I was about to print off my job diary for my sign on appointment. A back up (on USB stick) also corrupted. Due to limited time all I was able to do was record (in my best writing) the applications I made in the first week, and some of the applications I made in the second week on a piece of A4. This was far from my entire work activity, but at least it was something until I could provide the full job diary.

As expected this was deemed insufficient and a new appointment was made for me to sign on today. I was explicitly told to bring my job diary, either as a print off or on USB stick, to my new appointment and it will be looked at along with the handwritten sheet I provided.

Unfortunately today the member of staff I saw, who from the start had a harsh and obnoxious attitide making it clear I was being referred to a Decision Maker, refused to look at my job diary (which I'd put onto Universal Jobmatch, and had it on USB also). He just ssemed more bothered in picking on my for why I don't use booklets (as well as the computer) and why I don't use Universal Jobmatch "properly". None of this was relevant to the appointment or his business.

I explained to him that the handwritten sheet, with some of my applications recorded, was not my usual diary, or in any way an accurate representation of my usual jobsearching. I spend 8 to 10 hours a day working part-time, applying for jobs and voluntary work. The job diary I provide is detailed. The problem with time was an unfortunate, badly timed techincal problem.

Unfortunately toward the end, after some provocation, I lost my temper, which I regret, and which I don't think has helped my case. But I'm deeply frustrated with the situation as I do far more than the vast majority of people.

I know no one here is a decision maker, but if you could offer feedback on whether the Jobcentre were justified in referring my to a decision marker, and whether any appeal is likely to be accepted, I would grearly appreciate it.

Obviously my appeal, should one be needed, is based on the fact that I have dyspraxia, so reply on using a word processor, and it was just unfortunate bad luck. I made all attempts possible to tell them I can provide it by email, or USB, once my laptop is fixed (which wouldn't have taken long) but, as mentioned, was told to just come to the new appointment today.

I also wish to make it clear that I did not sign on yesterday, my usual sign on appointment. I signed on today (my new appointment). So techincally I was able to provide my job diary for signing on today, it just wasn't looked at. I don't know if this makes any difference.

There is more to this story after speaking with one of the managers on the phone. One thing he insists is that I was never told to bring in my job diary today and I must have misheard. In short, the Jobcentre clearly have no idea what customer service is and are just sticking up for themselves.

I do feel the jobcentre are being to anal about this, and ought to be more understanding to people with disabilities. But, as we all know, they will always look for techincalities in order to try and sanction people.

Thanks for reading.

They can't specify how you present your job search, you can write on any piece of paper.

SJI85

mro wrote: »

They can't specify how you present your job search, you can write on any piece of paper.

I know I can, and didn't mean to suggest they were suggesting I can't.

I just meant that the application record on the piece of paper was incomplete and it didn't include my other work related activity, so was not suitable as "real" evidence of everything I'd done that fortnight.

As for the advisor telling me I should use the booklets, this was just simply his advice, rather than a request. He thought I should fill in the booklet as a back up to the word processed document in case of another technology !!!! up. He didn't seem to understand, nor care, that this would only involve more work for me (among other things).

jetplane

SJI85 wrote: »

All I know is that the cause of this is not producing a proper job diary for my original sign on appointment yesterday (Wednesday), and this is why I've been referred to a DM. Whether it's ASE or FTA I don't know.

I believe it's still possible to record this information. However, instead of being humane and using common sense, including being a bit more flexible and understanding to those with disabilities, it seems some advisors are just far too trigger happy and go straight for a DM referral.

Interestingly this is the second time I've been unable to produce my job search activity. The first time was when I recorded it using UJ, forgetting that I'd previously withdrawn my consent for the DWP to view my account. As a result, when they sat down to look, they couldn't access it. In this instance the member of staff just asked me for a verbal record and gave me the benefit of the doubt.

Apparently I was "lucky" that day, as I should have been referred to a DM. It was careless of me, admittedly.

It shouldn't take a lucky day to get an informed adviser who can use common sense. It is ridiculous that a blip on your computer can cause this amount of extra work for yourself and the DWP. JC+ really have created a monster, what a total mess the system is in.

Why did you not sign on on Wednesday? Even if you did not have your diary this should not prevent you from actually signing?

SJI85

jetplane wrote: »

It shouldn't take a lucky day to get an informed adviser who can use common sense. It is ridiculous that a blip on your computer can cause this amount of extra work for yourself and the DWP. JC+ really have created a monster, what a total mess the system is in.

Yep. Of course they insist they are simply following rules and have no leeway. They're obliged to refer things like this to a decision maker. But of course common sense can be applied. It isn't because either a) The pressure that's placed on them to refer people to DMs or b) They're ignorant and clueless, particularly when it comes to disability and reasonable adjustments (e.g. providing a verbal record).

Why did you not sign on on Wednesday? Even if you did not have your diary this should not prevent you from actually signing?

I have no idea. I handed in my part time employment form, then explained my job diary situation(handing over the handwritten A4 sheet). The member of staff spoke to her manager, came back with the appointment card, told me to bring my diary, or a USB stick, for the appointment the following day, then sent me on my way.

SJI85

So can I ask a further question. When referred to a Decision Maker am I given no opportunity to present my case? Can I only provide my own written statement should I need to appeal?