ESA Tribunal help

omgwtflol

(please excuse my username, seems I signed up a long time ago eek)

Hi everyone,
Basically I’m in a bit of a mess, and looking for a bit of advice (maybe someone’s been through a similar thing, or knows more about the system than I do.. Which wouldn’t be hard :eek:.)

I’m a 31 year old guy, and originally I was claiming incapacity benefit, due to anxiety and depression; for around 12 months. Then I was moved over to ESA, contribution based. After 12 months that was to be stopped; so I switched over to income based ESA.
In March 2013 I was called in for an ATOS assessment, and given zero points. Obviously I was very surprised. I have a genuine condition (I’ll cover that down below), and I was fairly well prepared, having read the descriptors, taken along medication, doctor’s note and being quite careful about how I spoke and so on.
Anyway, I appealed, and was put on assessment rate while I waited for my tribunal date (resulting in around £3.5k in further debt, to date). I was eventually given one, and that was 2 weeks ago. I requested an adjournment, as I was still gathering evidence, but that was turned down. When I turned up (alone, which didn’t go down well with the judge.. But I can’t afford legal representation, and one of the reasons I’m asking here is for any suggestion with regards to organisations that do offer a free representative. I’m having no joy whatsoever) and basically it was adjourned by the judge on the day, due to my submitting further evidence on the day. What she actually said was “I don’t have time to review this evidence now, but at a glance I see no reason why you shouldn’t be in work. I won’t say anymore, or I won’t be able to see you next time. And I’d suggest you seek representation ”- Whilst basically scowling at me.
Needless to say I was mortified.. When I left the court I was pulled aside by someone who had just represented a young chap, and asked how I’d gotten on, because my judge is apparently ‘feared within the circuit’, and quite a hard case... Brilliant.
Anyway, I’ve been given another date, which is in 10 days time. Before I list the evidence I’ve submitted I’ll note a few quick oddities. Firstly, I was never asked to submit an ESA50 before my ATOS assessment. The last one I was asked to submit was in 2011. And yet in my ATOS report they state that the ESA50 was available for the assessor to review (just to add, I was also given 0 points for that one, but the decision was superseded , by whoever supersedes that?, as I’d appealed that too. But that was back in 2011, before the great purge.. But it’s funny how back then I was ill enough, but now, using the same ESA50, I’m no longer ill enough..), and secondly, as seems to be the case for everyone, they basically lied about everything that i said to the assessor. Nothing that’s written down relates to what I actually said.
So far I’ve submitted a letter from my doctor, stating that I do in fact have a long history of anxiety and depression, which make social interactions difficult, and impacts my ability to work. Also stating that I am seeing a CBT therapist. I have a letter from my CBT therapist, in which she was only willing to confirm that I am regularly attending CBT sessions. A copy of my medical records, dating back to 2011, which show my mental health referrals (several), CBT referrals, over 10 types of anti depressants prescribed, and diazepam, temazepam, etcetc. It also notes treatment for my IBS issues, treatment for insomnia, acid reflux, etc. All of which are ongoing, and most likely caused by Anxiety. I also submitted copies of the last 6 month’s worth of ‘statement of fitness for work’ (sicknotes) signed off by several gp’s., which again state that I am unfit for work due to anxiety and depression.

My question there is; what else do I need to submit?, or can submit?. Aside from having some sort of mind reader verify my mental health state, what can I do? L. I take (and am prescribed) diazepam, daily, for dealing with limited social situations. Lustral/Sertraline. And I attend CBT weekly (to give you an example of how things really are here, this week’s CBT goal is for the CBT therapist to accompany me down the local high street, as a social anxiety exposure exercise.. How on earth am I meant to jump into work from this position?. I’ve never felt this worried in all my life, it’s just making everything so much worse) and to add to that, I developed an issue with alcohol abuse over the last few years; which is for now under control (thanks to a local alcohol/drug agency called aquarius, who I recommend), and obviously that won’t be taken into account.
I’m not sure what else I can submit. I can request a medical report from my GP, which will cost £50 (which I don’t have). And she’s made it clear that it will only really reflect the information that’s in the letter she gave me and the medical records I have submitted (imagine..), and fair enough. And that’s pretty much all I can think of.
In terms of representation, I live in the Dudley area of the West Midlands; and I’ve contacted the CAB, and Mind, and basically been told that no-one deals with representation. Taking a family member along isn’t an option, as though I’ve been reduced to living with my father, he’s completely against benefits, and would certainly not fare well in the court room (he simply wouldn’t go anyway). Aside from that I have no friends to take. Professional legal representation isn’t affordable, sadly. So I’m kinda screwed there..

Ooof, my mind is melting. Sorry for the wall of text, I just wanted to try to cover everything (and maybe vent a bit..) and see if anyone had any advice. Literally, any advice is genuinely greatly appreciated.

bll78

I'm not sure on the representation, so I'll start with some questions I'm sure will help others give you advice. What evidence were you still gathering from March 2013 to the tribunal, and what did you submit on the day? Do you think maybe the judge saw this as a stalling technique as you'd had a year to gather together evidence? Maybe you should be prepared to explain why there was such a delay.
Secondly I assume your medical notes will include letters from your CBT to your GP and letters from all your other referrals, therefore the medical records will cover off what everyone else thinks without you needing to source additional information. Is this the case?

Mr_Lawnmower

bll78 wrote: »

What evidence were you still gathering from March 2013 to the tribunal, and what did you submit on the day? Do you think maybe the judge saw this as a stalling technique as you'd had a year to gather together evidence? Maybe you should be prepared to explain why there was such a delay.

If a request for adjournment is felt to be unreasonable as the party in question has had adequate time in the mind of the judge to prepare their case, the judge can punish that party by refusing the adjournment and going ahead anyway. That is what happened prior to the hearing, when the original poster's adjournment request was refused.

The original poster turned up to the hearing with additional evidence. In court proceedings, there are strict time limits for exchange of arguments and details of the evidence on which you seek to rely, to prevent ambush tactics. Benefit tribunals are less strict on these points, not least as many claimants are unrepresented and it is reasonably uncommon for DWP to send a representative to an oral hearing. However, it is only reasonable to expect the tribunal to get to grips with a modest quantity of material handed in at the hearing, especially as that new material could invalidate the preparatory work the panel did prior to the hearing. If the judge determines it is unreasonable to proceed in the circumstances, the hearing will be adjourned. This is a detriment to the claimant who turns up ready to proceed, and a benefit to the claimant who hoped for more time to prepare their case.


I judge that the original poster was probably not too unhappy about the adjournment. However, if further evidence is to be submitted, it should be sent to HMCTS well in advance of the next hearing. Any attempt to hand in evidence at a future hearing may be rebuffed - it is possible the original poster would be told that ample opportunity has been given to submit evidence and that it not be fair and just for the panel to spend time considering the additional evidence or to offer a further adjournment. In these circumstances, the hearing might exclude the new evidence and proceed anyway.


I'm a little surprised that lots of medical evidence is being collected and submitted. The task is to show it is more likely than not the criteria for award of benefit are met on the date of the assessment, not to build up an comprehensive medical history and leave it to the tribunal to figure out what is relevant. This might be at the heart of the judge's comment about representation - she wants arguments that directly address the disputes over the criteria for award of benefit, not a pile of source material from which she is expected to construct the claimant's case for them.


It is probably fairly easy for most claimants to establish broad symptom areas, the severity of illness and any fluctuation. Indeed, there may well be no dispute about these areas. The dispute is most likely to be about the functional effects of those symptoms on the ESA activities, which most medical evidence will not address.

I'd start by comparing the assessment report to the claimant's self-assessment, then scrutinise the report for reasons as to why there are these differences. Everything else in the report is of no consequence and can be ignored.

It's then a case of attacking the findings in the assessment report on the disputed points and making whatever fresh arguments seem relevant to the criteria for award of benefit, using evidence wherever possible. It is important to remember that the tribunal is not the place to complain about the report or anything about the benefits system - the task is solely one of trying to demonstrate a case for award of benefit.

HB58

Great post from Mr Lawnmower!

to summarise the situation regarding evidence - you need to show how your limitations meet the ESA descriptors rather than proof of your medical conditions. If you have not already done so, you should work out which of the descriptors apply to you and highlight anything you have that backs this up.

WelshDragon71

The OP situation is almost identical to what happened to me, in my case I used welfare rights in my area via my councils website and won my tribunal recently. That's the second time I've won a tribunal and I noticed the Welfare Rights support was significantly less than the first time due to cuts, which is VERY worrying.

Also, I too had lies, inconsistencies, contradictions and even lost information to contend with. Welfare Rights should help quite a bit, as long as your council funds it of course.

The whole process of the WCA is utterly inadequate for Mental Health issues, especially those regarding Social Anxiety.

Sometimes I feel the Govt and IDSS wants the disabled to just die. And thousands already have.

rogerblack

WelshDragon71 wrote: »

Also, I too had lies, inconsistencies, contradictions and even lost information to contend with. Welfare Rights should help quite a bit, as long as your council funds it of course.

As a general point, I almost never think it's appropriate to refer to inaccuracies in the WCA process as lies.
Lies are intentional misrepresentations of the truth.

There is little reason to need to invoke lies - carelessness - rushed work due to time pressure, incompetence is quite adequate.

Morglin

omgwtflol wrote: »

(please excuse my username, seems I signed up a long time ago eek)

Hi everyone,
Basically I’m in a bit of a mess, and looking for a bit of advice (maybe someone’s been through a similar thing, or knows more about the system than I do.. Which wouldn’t be hard :eek:.)

I’m a 31 year old guy, and originally I was claiming incapacity benefit, due to anxiety and depression; for around 12 months. Then I was moved over to ESA, contribution based. After 12 months that was to be stopped; so I switched over to income based ESA.
In March 2013 I was called in for an ATOS assessment, and given zero points. Obviously I was very surprised. I have a genuine condition (I’ll cover that down below), and I was fairly well prepared, having read the descriptors, taken along medication, doctor’s note and being quite careful about how I spoke and so on.
Anyway, I appealed, and was put on assessment rate while I waited for my tribunal date (resulting in around £3.5k in further debt, to date). I was eventually given one, and that was 2 weeks ago. I requested an adjournment, as I was still gathering evidence, but that was turned down. When I turned up (alone, which didn’t go down well with the judge.. But I can’t afford legal representation, and one of the reasons I’m asking here is for any suggestion with regards to organisations that do offer a free representative. I’m having no joy whatsoever) and basically it was adjourned by the judge on the day, due to my submitting further evidence on the day. What she actually said was “I don’t have time to review this evidence now, but at a glance I see no reason why you shouldn’t be in work. I won’t say anymore, or I won’t be able to see you next time. And I’d suggest you seek representation ”- Whilst basically scowling at me.
Needless to say I was mortified.. When I left the court I was pulled aside by someone who had just represented a young chap, and asked how I’d gotten on, because my judge is apparently ‘feared within the circuit’, and quite a hard case... Brilliant.
Anyway, I’ve been given another date, which is in 10 days time. Before I list the evidence I’ve submitted I’ll note a few quick oddities. Firstly, I was never asked to submit an ESA50 before my ATOS assessment. The last one I was asked to submit was in 2011. And yet in my ATOS report they state that the ESA50 was available for the assessor to review (just to add, I was also given 0 points for that one, but the decision was superseded , by whoever supersedes that?, as I’d appealed that too. But that was back in 2011, before the great purge.. But it’s funny how back then I was ill enough, but now, using the same ESA50, I’m no longer ill enough..), and secondly, as seems to be the case for everyone, they basically lied about everything that i said to the assessor. Nothing that’s written down relates to what I actually said.
So far I’ve submitted a letter from my doctor, stating that I do in fact have a long history of anxiety and depression, which make social interactions difficult, and impacts my ability to work. Also stating that I am seeing a CBT therapist. I have a letter from my CBT therapist, in which she was only willing to confirm that I am regularly attending CBT sessions. A copy of my medical records, dating back to 2011, which show my mental health referrals (several), CBT referrals, over 10 types of anti depressants prescribed, and diazepam, temazepam, etcetc. It also notes treatment for my IBS issues, treatment for insomnia, acid reflux, etc. All of which are ongoing, and most likely caused by Anxiety. I also submitted copies of the last 6 month’s worth of ‘statement of fitness for work’ (sicknotes) signed off by several gp’s., which again state that I am unfit for work due to anxiety and depression.

My question there is; what else do I need to submit?, or can submit?. Aside from having some sort of mind reader verify my mental health state, what can I do? L. I take (and am prescribed) diazepam, daily, for dealing with limited social situations. Lustral/Sertraline. And I attend CBT weekly (to give you an example of how things really are here, this week’s CBT goal is for the CBT therapist to accompany me down the local high street, as a social anxiety exposure exercise.. How on earth am I meant to jump into work from this position?. I’ve never felt this worried in all my life, it’s just making everything so much worse) and to add to that, I developed an issue with alcohol abuse over the last few years; which is for now under control (thanks to a local alcohol/drug agency called aquarius, who I recommend), and obviously that won’t be taken into account.
I’m not sure what else I can submit. I can request a medical report from my GP, which will cost £50 (which I don’t have). And she’s made it clear that it will only really reflect the information that’s in the letter she gave me and the medical records I have submitted (imagine..), and fair enough. And that’s pretty much all I can think of.
In terms of representation, I live in the Dudley area of the West Midlands; and I’ve contacted the CAB, and Mind, and basically been told that no-one deals with representation. Taking a family member along isn’t an option, as though I’ve been reduced to living with my father, he’s completely against benefits, and would certainly not fare well in the court room (he simply wouldn’t go anyway). Aside from that I have no friends to take. Professional legal representation isn’t affordable, sadly. So I’m kinda screwed there..

Ooof, my mind is melting. Sorry for the wall of text, I just wanted to try to cover everything (and maybe vent a bit..) and see if anyone had any advice. Literally, any advice is genuinely greatly appreciated.

I cannot link from an IPad, but if you google 'Dudley welfare rights', it brings up a couple of organisations in place to help people, in your area, with benefit issues.

Contact them, and they will probably be able to help with the lot of it, and maybe some representation.

Lin

omgwtflol

Hi there,

Just to update the thread. I've contacted my local welfare rights dpt, who don't offer advocacy/representation, but rather advice over the phone; and they suggested CAB. CAB said that they don't offer representation at this point because they have 'extremely limited resources now'. Next was MIND, who don't offer representation, but focus on group and one to one support. Re-Think essentially said the same, but I'm expecting a call back from a specialist adviser tomorrow. I tried the Dudley Advocacy group, who again don't offer physical representation, but rather 'help writing letters, and give advice', and then the Birmingham Tribunal unit, who will be calling me back tomorrow as their single senior adviser was out of office; so I don't hold out much hope there. The lady on the phone described them as a 'very small charity', but we shall see. I asked each of them whether they could recommend anyone, and they each suggested CAB, aside from one who recommended a law firm in Birmingham (not affordable, sadly).

It's quite funny really. They each cited budget cutbacks as the main issue, and CAB/Dudley advocacy basically said that the lack of budget made physical representation unaffordable at this point.
In a system where physical representation at a tribunal (especially for people like myself who find it very difficult to represent themselves in person, doubly so in-front of a tribunal) can make the difference between winning and losing; the cuts in funding that provide that representation seem almost calculated.. Dare I say it..


bll78- The timeline/evidence submission was certainly my own fault. Essentially I was waiting on a subject access request I'd submitted to my GP surgery. This should take 21 days, but can apparently take up to 40. In any event I was given a printoff of my basic medical history (it didn't include communications/physical letters sent between my GP/Therapist/mental health assessment. I was given 2 options. This option cost £10, and the second option cost £50, which I now assume would have included the physical communication etc. Sadly (and not to sound like a deadbeat) I couldn't afford the £50 option. The same thing goes for the doctor's report, which would be great, but again, it's £50. That's not far off my weekly benefit, and is basically spent before it arrives.

Mr Lawnmower- that's very informative, thank-you. "It's then a case of attacking the findings in the assessment report on the disputed points and making whatever fresh arguments seem relevant to the criteria for award of benefit, using evidence wherever possible.". Absolutely. And did do that, painstakingly, with my ESA GL24 appeal submission, going through each assessment point and explaining how and why I dispute each section, and ofc explaining my actual situation/issues. This was submitted some time ago, and would have been assessed by the judge prior to the tribunal (I would assume), and seemed to have little impact. Though it was written with knowledge of the descriptors, and in a very thorough and honest manner.

HB58 I think certainly one of the mistakes that I have made is to argue everything.. Rather than focus on 2-3 specific descriptors. When I first submitted my appeal I was rather adamant that I should have been awarded points for pretty much every section, as my condition certainly does impact almost all of them. Alas, that's not how it's done.

WelshDragon71- Unfortunately my local Welfare Rights were unable to tell me anything that I didn't already know (though their information was useful, and I would recommend anyone else reading this in the future to give them a call), and they don't offer physical representation. At least not in this area.

Morglin - Hi there Morglin, thanks for the suggestion. I've contacted pretty much all of the organisations that I can find. Sadly no joy. Pretty much all of the information that they have to offer is available online/commonly banded about. But certainly I would recommend anyone contact them in the initial phase.

Thanks for the replies, I'll keep this updated. Though it's not looking good. I think in all likelihood I'll not be attending my hearing. The impact of that isn't something I can calculate, but the last one was quite devastating. And though I understand that for the majority of people it's not a big, or not /as/ big of an ordeal, for me it was quite distressing, and even with all the good prep in the world, I doubt very much that I'd be able to adequately communicate my evidence and disputes. We shall see I suppose.

Morglin

It really is appalling that people can't seem to get representation any more.

However, I really would advise you to attend the tribunal. I appreciate that you find it an ordeal, but you really do have much greater chance of success if you go.

Can you not write down (beforehand) what you wish to say, and then either let them read it, or if not, read it out yourself?

Lin

WelshDragon71

omgwtflol wrote: »

It's quite funny really. They each cited budget cutbacks as the main issue, and CAB/Dudley advocacy basically said that the lack of budget made physical representation unaffordable at this point.
In a system where physical representation at a tribunal (especially for people like myself who find it very difficult to represent themselves in person, doubly so in-front of a tribunal) can make the difference between winning and losing; the cuts in funding that provide that representation seem almost calculated.. Dare I say it..

Mate I'm aghast at what you say, it's appalling and you know what....I think it's clearly calculated. It's truly shocking . If you have a facebook account try https://www.facebook.com/ATOSM it's all about people fighting the WCA's, maybe you can get more advice and help there. Also there's http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/ , also a group campaigning against the WCA processes and a telling name too as this Govt's not far off the Nazi's IMO, the disabled are unproductive so the numbers are being "thinned". And I think it's a truly shocking testament to this nation that it's being allowed to happen.

WelshDragon71

rogerblack wrote: »

As a general point, I almost never think it's appropriate to refer to inaccuracies in the WCA process as lies.
Lies are intentional misrepresentations of the truth.

There is little reason to need to invoke lies - carelessness - rushed work due to time pressure, incompetence is quite adequate.

I disagree, the whole ATOS/WCA thing stinks to high heaven, in my tribunal cases I had the "report" from both my assessors and both were almost complete fiction in many areas, suppositions made about my mental health that were either lies or were gross medical negligence.

And like the OP says help is hard to get (although luckily welfare rights in my area could come along with me to both tribunals).
Sadly I know I'll be assessed again after a years grace (stipulated by the tribunal) and the incompetance/lies will start again and who knows maybe my areas budget cuts will stop Welfare rights helping me next time.