Confusion about tenancy

reddevildanni

Hi, it's quite a complicated situation (according to our housing office!) so I'll try and keep it as straight forward as i can.

I'm 22 years old and have lived in this house since i was 4 years old with my Mum, Nanna & Grandad. I have a disability and this house has been fully adapted for me.

On the tenancy it is currently a 3 way split (this was set up years ago, housing people now say they've never even heard of anything like this (3 way tenancy) before) between my Mum, Nanna & Grandad. However, my Nanna has just passed away. My Mum thought that now my Nanna has passed away it would be a good idea to get my name put on the tenancy so that if anything happened to my Mum & Grandad i would have some security.

We've been into the housing office today and they just seem like they don't have a clue!! First i was told that three way tenancy's don't exist and they don't know how it was done in the first place. Then i was asked to fill in a "Succession of Tenancy" form and then i was told that they would have to speak to the manager and get back to me about it. I was sat there 2 & a half hours and i'm still none the wiser. They couldn't even tell me if any of this would affect benefits?

I claim ESA (contributions based) & DLA and as i'm currently classed as a non dependent i have to pay just under £15 "rent".

My mum claims Income Support, Carers Allowance & Housing/Council Tax benefit.

My grandad claims DLA. He pays his own rent & council tax.

Would me going on the tenancy affect any of our benefits & if i do end up on the tenancy would i be entitled to claim housing benefit or would i still have to pay rent?

nannytone_2

you asked this same question a few weeks ago and was given lots of advice.
have you followed up on any of that advice?

reddevildanni

I didn't get any advice regarding how it would affect any benefits. I was just told about the Bedroom Tax etc.

DerbyDD

You say Grandad pays his own rent and council. Does he get housing benefit for it or pay out himself? If he gets HB and receives middle rate care DLA then there shouldn't be a non-dependant deduction.

BigAunty

As per my post on the other thread, based on the information provided below by Shelter, you are unlikely to succeed to this tenancy unless there is something in the existing contract that permits it.

Can you pass on your tenancy when you die?

Assured housing association tenancies can be passed on to your partner, civil partner or cohabiting partner when you die – this is known as succession. If you have a joint tenancy, the other joint tenant will automatically take over the tenancy if you die. Only one succession is normally allowed.
Family members cannot succeed to most housing association tenancies, unless the tenancy agreement allows for this.

I gave you links to how to complain to the HA and how to then escalate it to the HA ombudsman if the HA don't make a timely decision or make one that you don't like.

I do wonder whether you could succeed to the tenancy upon the next death or not if it is now the policy for the HA to only issue joint (2 person) tenancies which is the national norm or whether they would consent to another intergenerational joint tenancy instead of partner based one which is more typical. I also wonder whether they class the move from a 3 person to 2 person tenancy as a succession or not (usually it is about giving a joint 2 person tenancy into the surviving spouse as a sole tenancy and that is the single succession that is permitted).

What does your tenancy handbook or housing assocation website say about succession? What does the tenancy agreement say about it? You haven't mentioned any of the actual published policies or contract - you have access to them, we don't!


***************

You do not pay 'rent' as such as you have no liability for it because you are not a named tenant - that's why you don't qualify for HB in your own right now because you have no liability to pay rent. Granted that you do pay towards household living expenses, and perhaps this is prompted by a non-dependent deduction which reduces the HB or council tax discount paid to one or more of the tenants (your grandad has an exemption because of his DLA care but I don't believe your mother is exempt from this) .Do double check though.

Have you tried to model this current and future scenarios on the Turn2us online benefit checkers?

Here is a table for NDDs. Currently you are on ESA contributions based but it is only NDs with income based ESA that prevent the actual tenant from getting a NDD.

I do wonder whether NDDs would stop if you become a tenant and you would get full HB, simply because there is no longer a non-dependent in the property in that scenario. In some areas of England, the council still expect certain types of benefit claimants to contribute towards the council tax bill as they can set their own discount schemes and this varies from area to area.

http://www.islington.gov.uk/advice/benefits/counciltaxandhousingbenefits/Pages/non-dependants.aspx

******************

This is what a leaftlet says about succession for HA tenants (National Homelessness Advice Service website).

"If you are a housing association tenant, the
right for your tenancy to be passed on to
someone else when you die (this is known as
‘succession’) depends upon the type of
tenancy you have. It can also depend upon
what your tenancy agreement says.
Succession can only happen once, so if you
succeeded to the tenancy yourself no one
else can take over the tenancy when you
die,(unless your tenancy agreement allows
for more than one succession, but this is rare.
If you have a joint tenancy, the other joint
tenant will take over the tenancy when you
die (and this counts as a succession).

If you are an assured tenant, your tenancy
can be passed on to your wife, husband, civil
partner, or co-habitee if your home was also
their home at the time of your death. The
successor will inherit the same type of
tenancy you had and have the same rights to
remain in the property as you had.
If you are not married, registered as a civil
partner or living with a co-habitee (or your
home wasn’t their home when you died)
your tenancy can only be passed to someone
else,if your tenancy agreement allows for this
to happen. This is normally restricted to other
members of your family who have been
living with you for at least one year."

You may find this thread interesting.

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/housing-associations-tenancy-agreement/264.thread

BigAunty

Actually, this document may be the key document as it is quite recent and follows the Localism Act in England (if that's where you are) which changed a lot of housing law. Again, your actual contract is key so dig it out and come back to the forum members to say what is says about succession. This is why it is important - only the contract would let you succeed because housing law is against you. "it would be necessary to check the tenancy agreements of these tenants when dealing with succession queries as it is possible that there may be a contractual right for relatives other than a spouse/civil partner to succeed."

https://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01998.pdf‎

"There can only be one statutory succession to an assured tenancy. On the death of an assured tenant his or her spouse/civil partner can succeed provided that immediately before the death s/he was occupying the dwelling as his/her only or principal home"

The way I interpret the following is that when your grandfather or mother passes away in the future, there will be no further succession but I am open to being challenged on this one.

"There can be no statutory succession if the deceased was already a successor. If the tenancy was a joint tenancy and the deceased became the sole tenant on the death of the other original tenant, there can be no statutory succession"

Housing_Benefit_Officer

My local authority did a review of tenancies to check who their tenants were. About a dozen were found where 2 or 3 brothers and sisters were all joint tenants or parents and adult children. We wouldn't create such tenancies now but such quirky tenancies probably do exist in every local authority and were probably drawn up many years ago.