How Socialism Works (not for the faint hearted)

adouglasmhor

Generali wrote: »

Why do you think West Germans got rich whereas on the 'Democratic' side of the wall it was, in effect, a capital crime to attempt to leave? Perhaps that was just another one of those little anomalous bits of communism, an exception to the rule. Like forcing mothers to drown babies, starving 10s of millions deliberately, forced abortion and sterilization and the Gulag.

If you want small horror stories about state comunism I have loads heard from survivors who are friends of mine*, some small crueleties some large. Doesn't mean all left thinkers condone or want that as an outcome.

*One woman I know was held down by her "carers" in a state orphange and had her teeth smashed out by a female government official for attempting to escape to the west aged 13, she did escape when she was 16, 18 months before the IGB opened. That's one of the milder ones.

Generali

adouglasmhor wrote: »

If you want small horror stories about state comunism I have loads heard from survivors who are friends of mine*, some small crueleties some large. Doesn't mean all left thinkers condone or want that as an outcome.

*One woman I know was held down by her "carers" in a state orphange and had her teeth smashed out by a female government official for attempting to escape to the west aged 13, she did escape when she was 16, 18 months before the IGB opened. That's one of the milder ones.

I'm not sure it matters whether they condone it, I'm sure Lenin and Marx didn't see the routine use of the Gulag or mass forced labour until death or collectivization causing the death of 10s of millions as the way forward at the start. It's what happened though.

The consequences may be unintended but they're pretty damn real.

adouglasmhor

Generali wrote: »

Thanks, I'll give it a go.

Who's the author? We don't really have books in Australia.

Ursula Le Guin AKA UK Le Guin, She is more of a Anarchist (and a Taoist) than a Communist though and I don't find her critique of Communism or Capitalism in the novel to be complimentary to either system, it is written at the time of the Vietnam war and is very much a cipher for that period of American society.

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ursula-k-le-guin-the-dispossessed

adouglasmhor

Generali wrote: »

I'm not sure it matters whether they condone it, I'm sure Lenin and Marx didn't see the routine use of the Gulag or mass forced labour until death or collectivization causing the death of 10s of millions as the way forward at the start. It's what happened though.

The consequences may be unintended but they're pretty damn real.

Marx almost certainly did and specifically wrote of the dangers of a society that was not ready for comunism like Russia adopting it.
Lenin was a total scumbag end of.

Out,_Vile_Jelly

adouglasmhor wrote: »

Lenin was a total scumbag end of.

I think this is the crux of it. If power-crazed, mentalist despots end up in control then you get state-sanctioned atrocities. The political/religious label is almost incidental.

tomterm8

Generali wrote: »

I'm not sure it matters whether they condone it, I'm sure Lenin and Marx didn't see the routine use of the Gulag or mass forced labour until death or collectivization causing the death of 10s of millions as the way forward at the start. It's what happened though.

The consequences may be unintended but they're pretty damn real.

That's just wrong. It's like saying that the people who voted for Hitler didn't know what they were doing. Hitler wrote it all in a book before he got to power: persecution of jews, homosexuals, invasion of weaker nations, everything.

Revolution is a fundamental part of Marxism. It's fundamental to communism. It's a feature, not a bug.

And revolution always leads to the Gulag. Always. Mass murder is a feature of communism, it's not a bug. When you decide that if you can't convince people of your correctness from reason and instead will just shoot them you are crossing a Rubicon.

Socialism and communism are not the same thing.
Thatcherism and Fascism are not the same thing.

Actually, Socialism and Thatcherism are both very similar things even though they disagree on economics to a small extent. They both acknowledge democratic will and personal freedom to disagree with their ideologies.

Voyager2002

adouglasmhor wrote: »

Marx almost certainly did and specifically wrote of the dangers of a society that was not ready for comunism like Russia adopting it.
Lenin was a total scumbag end of.

Umm... Marx had more complex views on this and actually contradicted himself. Although his main point was that capitalism was progressive and necessary as a stage of development before socialism would be possible. Galbraith had lots of interesting things to say about this, and the paradox that most so-called socialist countries had not previously experienced capitalist development.

Lenin was ruthless and did what was necessary to achieve his goals... he was just about as much a scumbag as was Churchill.

Stalin, OTOH was pure evil. Lenin himself warned of the danger that Stalin posed, but by then it was too late.

Bantex_2

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BobQ

Generali wrote: »

One for the sympathizers to understand who they are siding with.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/16/world/asia/north-korea-un-report/



The workers' flag is deepest red,
That shroudeth all our victims dead,
While traitors scoff and cowards sneer,
We'll murder babies without a care

I think someone has stolen Generali's identity.....?

DaveTheMus

Generali wrote: »

One for the sympathizers to understand who they are siding with.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/16/world/asia/north-korea-un-report/



The workers' flag is deepest red,
That shroudeth all our victims dead,
While traitors scoff and cowards sneer,
We'll murder babies without a care

Surely a testament to the failures of the British Education System.