Buying from a small dealer

castle96

Hi - some advice please from you knowledgable people...

Have never bought from a dealer of any sort, always private. Typical dealer would be 10-50 cars. Some pointers please

1. I hear of people paying the "first £100 on a credit card" (to get protection under the ??? Act. Would a dealer really mess aroung with this (or have the facilities)?
How would/should you, pay the balance ? Bankers draft, cheque, cash ?
Would they be 'impressed' by cash (not going through the books must be an advantage)
2. What does "sold on trade terms" mean ? That there is absolutely NO comback ?
Would I have any comeback anyway if it went FUBAR after a couple of weeks?
Assuming it doesnt say "sold on trade terms" (only seen that once), then what cover DO I have ?
3.What does "3 months warrently" mean - warrenty on what ?
I assume there is NO cover if you buy privately, ie "sold as seen" - TRUE ? as I may come across a private one
4.. Is there any need for HPI/finace checks. Surely they have done these before THEY buy it ?
5.. No doubt the dealer will be miles away, so I would have to leave and come back. What does leaving a deposit mean (to me/them)
6.. Looking to buy at approx £3k. Current car is a tatty L reg Discovery. I would sell privately for £500 max. Probably will have an MOT at the time. Will dealer offer me anything for it ? This will reduce any flexibility to reduce the asking price for that I am buying ? (or leave the Q of trade in until price agreed.
7. Do they check/service the car you are buying before you pick it up (suppose I am being niave here !)
8. Test drive
My Insurance would not cover me - theirs would ??

Any help and advice appreciated - thanks

NVRAM

1. Whack it on CC and pay it off instalty?
2. Sounds like "sold as seen"
3. Ask what the warranty specifically DOESNT include
4. HPI unless they can provide you a printout of a recent one
5. Non refundable in most cases, change yer mind they woudl keep the deposit
6. ask?
7. They'd check it over yeah
8. Should do as long as trade plates on and one of them in car wiht you

atrixblue.-MFR-.

i think you need to take someone who is experienced with buying from small dealers if this is your first time.

1.if you want to put part of the payment of the car in Credit Card you can (just make sure you have the funds to pay the card back asap).

2.if you hear we'll discount the screen price to a trade sale price, or take it as is, walk away never ever deal with small dealer/trader that is trying to deliberately limit your rights, he certinaly wont care what issues the vehicle has and wont repair them and leaves you fighting in the courts for you rights and money.

3.warranties are not worth the paper its written read the exlcusions in the small print on what they dont cover, youll probably find its doesnt cover 90% of the car anyway.

4. If the small dealer boasts HPI clear on all cars he stocks then call his bluff and ask him to see the report before purchase, note time and date of their HPI, if he cant provide it wont provide it says he has but cant find it, then probably he hasnt checked it, do your OWN.
its normal for a HPI to throw up mileage discrepancies, MOT stations often key in wrong mileage, by adding an extra zero by mistake, its ones that look like 10.000 miles first mot 30.000 miles second 24.000miles third and current mot and 26k on the clock you want to look out for in clocked vehicles. ones that look like 10.000 miles 300.000 miles and then 40.000 miles can be taken as a mistake

5.leaving a deposit is a commitment to buy the car by yourself, the small dealer puts a sold sign in the window as he is awaitng your return to collect and settle your remaining balance and drive away your new car, before tis you should fully test the vehicle, make sure all is working and anything that is needing doing like new tires (if their bald they shouldnt be and you shouldnt test drive it with nearly bald tires)new MOT sorting out issues you found with the vehicle, on you reciept it should show the agree'd terms in hich youve laid doown the deposit, so if you find a few things needing doing it should be put on the deposit reciept, if its not you should ask for them to be included its a contract of sale.
the only time your entitled to recieve your deposit back is when the small dealer has broken those terms of contract so if he doesnt sort out the issues, or after some time he's tried to sort them but decided he cant and call you to say he cant then your entitled to have your deposit back, even if he offer a reduction in price because he cant repair them get your money back its your right. if you breach contract of the deposit, he can keep the deposit (he may have had someone else come in after you to buy but you got there first) he would also be entitled to chase you for losses and damages in court for breaching terms of contract for the amount of the car was for sale. you lay a depost car comes of sale and agreed works are commenced you then return and pay the remaining balance say £2500 is the whole balance, your depsoit of £500 leaves you to pay £2000 on the remaining balance when you collect the car.

6.screen price for the car your looking to buy is the asking price, theres room to negatiate but be realistic, asking a small trader to knock hundres off a car is a huge insult, for e.g £3k screen price, you say youll give him £2150 cash he'll probably ask if he got mug written on his forhead followed a four letter expletive and OFF. landy discoveries are worth more private to the off road enthusiast than they are to a small trader he wont want it he'll offer a low bottom price for it hoping to shift it quick on an online auction site for a bigger profit margin. its upto you how you proceed with that aspect asking for part ex price against the propective purchase plus knock £150 off screen or negotiate on screen price without part ex.

7, small dealer is to put his trade plates on the front of the car removed any frint windscreen view hampering screen adverts like a big LOW MILEAGE sign, let you drive (as his motor trade insurance covers test drivers), some traders let people go out on their own with the trade plates this is not best practice and they shouldnt allow it period.

8.full servicing cam belt water pump filters plugs etc, its all what you negotiate and how generous he feels at the time. if you dont insult him/her with an offer and you get a decent price part ex and a decent knock down on the screen price, i'd say dont risk asking your not going to get it, and put what you saved on screen price servicing it right away at a good garage yourself, if you dont get far with negotiations on money aspect, then change tactics to having a full servicing inc cam belt water pump instead plus whatever needs doing and new MOT if its nearly due what you cant get off the screen you maybe able to get in services. if thats a no go then id be inclinced to walk away and find another dealer.

EDIT: Private sales advice, as below its caveat emptor LET THE BUYER BEWARE!!, but there safe guards you can put in place that can make things much easier for you as a buyer.

1.HPI REPORT. This will list the obvious to you, stolen, accident write off, mileage discrepancies (as above) and most importantly OUTSANDING FINANCE! repitable HPI companies will have insurance in place in the event their information is wrong (if you purchase the full report not a cheap one that excludes this insurance but rarely the information is wrong) like saying HPI clear then 2 month down the line your pulled by police as a stolen marker has been placed on it because the finance company wants their collaterol back due to the finance no being paid and your left with nothing.

2. Read the advert CAREFULLY, many will talk the good talk about their car they have for sale, but you must keep in mind if it was that good a car why are they selling it so always ask why are selling the car? even if the ad lists the reason why, why because if you read different to what your being told, then the seller is lying, so what else is he/she lying about?
AVOID adverts that say the shortest of things, for e.g daily runner good condition, run start and drives translated ive run it into the ground i need gone asap.
PRINT THE ADVERT take it with you, compare it to the car is there anything missing? anything that dont work and is stated as having it for e.g aircon it may have aircon as standard but if its not working it doesnt have aircon! electric windows but their manual its not as desribed walk away.
LOOK in the list of features really carfully, many people will hide the fact its a CAT.D or CAT.C write off in the list of features the car has that many people skim over as they usually do for e.g ABS, SRS, RDS/EON stereo, cat d, ELECTRIC WINDOWS.
GOOGLE the telephone number provided BEFORE you call the number, This will usually throw up some intersting results, like 3 or 4 different car ads for different cars for sale under the same mob/landline number as a PRIVATE SELLER this is not a private seller this a trade seller posing as a private seller again to limit your rights, but also people hoping to turn a fast buck not pay tax and genrally give honest traders a bad name.
NEVER CALL AND TELL: when calling the advert number always say "im calling about the car you have for sale" if you get a reply WHAT ONE then hang up move on he has more than one!
DO NOT meet in service stations or at a small off street back lane of garages of the sellers or any other meeting point if a seller says I dont have the car at home its somewhere else then see if he can arrange to have it transported to his home for you to view it.
ARRIVAL CHECKS: if you arrange to turn up at 10AM then be there earlier, do a reccy drive past is the car in the drive or outside the house? is it being "warmed up" (sat on the drive/street started up idling away) is it being worked on (appart from personal belongings being removed) like a battery charger attached to it or something just doesnt look right, when you do turn up to look at it (after your reccy drive) is it the same person you seen around the car or in it if you did see anyone with it on your reccy? if not ask yourself WHY?
If he is on the street with the car outside the house he says is his then why did he not wait in the house for you to arrive and knock the door? (you may as well look over the car carefully with your advert in hand).
V5C checking, Where does he/she pull it from glove box? passenger seat? boot? that would be odd considdering that A.many people have the v5c stored with other documents in the house, B.who keeps the v5c in their cars?
CHEKC THE V5C really carefully, modern red blue and pinkinsh v5c's have a hidden DVLA watermark on the front cover, hold it upto the light (unfolded) youll see it, if you dont its fake and at that point i would walk away, if you see it then good check the address, check the name, and most important check the SPECIAL NOTES section on bottom of page 2?, it will list there cat c write off and the date, or number plate changes, engine swaps, color changes and other key buyer info there.
Then check the chassis numbers, in the windscreen bottom passenger side, under bonnet on VIN PLATE.
Never exchange cash before you see the documents!.
DO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE: are you feeling relaxed around the seller, do you feel comfortable around him or her, are you getting the impression that yiour being led down a garden path, if so then walk away, ive done it in the past because i just dont like the seller.

does it have tax? if so check the number plate is correct, that there is as many months left as they say it is and does it have the PLG mark and not disabled NIL mark in it, if it has nil on it, then its disablity registered tax and you cant have that tax, you need to re register the car as a normal car and buy tax for it.

wiggle prod poke and test everything is all and working.

BEFORE YOU DRIVE:is there insurance in place on the car? no? you cant test it if you dont have insurance to drive it! if you take someone with you who does have full comp insurance, then get them to check that A.they have drive other cars third party liability cover, and B their terms and conditions isnt resticted to covering them driving the vehicle so long as the vehicle to be driven (or test driven in this case) is insured in its own right (I.E the owner has a policy on the car)if it has this clause and the vehicle isnt insured then it cannot be driven and you have to rely on how the engine sounds and its condition.

Always take someone with a knowladge of cars, even pay a local garage mechanic to go with you.

the credit card thing is called a section 75 claim in the event a product/item is faulty and you have issues with the supplier,. you can gain more info on this subject in the consumer advice or credit cards boards on this site.

Richard53

1. Others can explain the credit card thing. For the balance, you would think that cash was king, but as dealers often make more from the finance deal than the car itself, that's not always the case. People are often a bit nervous of large quantities of cash, but a banker's draft or a debit card payment is equivalent. If a dealer isn't set up for this kind of transaction, he's probably a very small operator. If I got a hint that the payment wouldn't be going through the books, I would run a mile. If he's happy to cheat on his taxes, by definition you're dealing with someone dishonest.

2. 'Trade terms' has no meaning in law, and is an attempt to evade his repsonsibilities under the Sale of Goods Act. There is always a comeback against faulty goods in law (lots of discussion of this elsewhere in the forum) but 'trade terms' indicates the dealer wants nothing to do with it after it leaves the premises. Not a good sign.

3. You can only find out what the warranty covers by asking detailed questions. It will almost certainly be less than you think, and may come with conditions that make it almost worthless. I bought one car with a year's 'warranty' and when I read the small print, I had to take the car back to the same dealer for a service every 1000 miles, or the 'warranty' was void. Effectively, no warranty at all. A learning experience, that one (luckily, the car ran like a champ). A private sale should be regarded as caveat emptor/buyer beware, as you have little comeback in law against the seller unless the advert or description was misleading or factually wrong, and even than you will have to prove it.

4.. HPI check for your own peace of mind. The dealer should have taken care of this (if he has done so and can show you the paperwork, great) but you can't rely on that.

5.. A deposit in theory shows your commitment to the purchase, and covers the dealer against his expenses prepping the car if you change your mind. You should regard it as non-refundable, worst-case.

6.. At that age/condition/price, the Disco would be a headache to the dealer, and you probably wouldn't get much for it. Sell privately and go with cash.

7. Ask if the car will be serviced before sale, and what that would involve. You would be very lucky to get a full service - usually it's a quick oil change and no more at this level.

8. The dealer should have insurance to cover test drives, but ask first rather than assume.

(Edit: cross-posted with the above. He says it better.)

Nodding_Donkey

Also beware that a dealer will try to resist you paying anything on a credit card. They also know about section 75 claims and are aware that the credit card company will just claw the amount of the claim back. A friend of mine made a section 75 claim after paying a £100 deposit on a credit card. He asked Lloyds if they needed any more info from him to help them get the £3k they had just paid out back from the dealer. the guy from Lloyds just laughed and said not to worry "Our legal department is bigger than his (the dealers)"

The Disco, if it doesn't need loads of work, will probably be worth more in a private sale. Any hint of snow will instantly add £500 to the price

Prothet_of_Doom

When they say "3 Months warranty" this basically means that they'll attempt to abide by the Sale Of Goods act and all it's vagueness, where it's the reasonable expectation of quality and reliability are most open to interpretation, but it's commonly accepted that the Trading standards will expect a commitment of a minimum of 3 months from the trader.
So when I see 3 months warranty, I see, someone who after 4 months is going to try and wriggle out of all issues, depite the fact that if I'm paying £5K for a car, I've got a reasonable expectation that the con rod shouldn't exit the engine through the side of the block at 3 months and 3 days.

I'd actually prefer to buy privately, because I always felt better knowing that I've paid less, because I'm taking a risk, and when you pay 100% more and buy off a small dealer, you know it's going to be a pain to get anything fixed in the future. Problem is that less people want to sell their decent car privately, because selling cars is such a PITA.
Last 2 cars I bought came from small dealers, and that was because the cars we wanted were actually more expensive privately.
One (a Mini Cooper costing £3,100) developed a fault 4 weeks later, which was something and nothing, but showed the true stereotype of back street dealer, being a pain to deal with.
The symptom was the lights, flicking over bumps, followed by the battery being dead. Being fairly confident, I tracked this down to a loose battery lead, so I just tightened it up, and put jump leads across to another car to get it started. 4 days later it happened again, and I realised that the battery was too short, and it could bounce up and down maybe 4 mm.
I investigated on the internet, and found that the mini one had a smaller shorter battery, and a plastic packing peice under it, and the mini cooper should have a higher battery and no packing peice.
I phoned up the dealer, explained that the battery was flat, and could he come (4 miles) and get it sorted. There were so many excuses, but he'd order a new battery, and if I could somehow get it to this garage that he uses, they'd fit the battery and test the charging circuit. I explained VERY specifically that the battery fitted was wrong, (although Halfords and most motor factors do only list one battery so It's not surprising the mistake had been made)
and to please ensure that the right version was purchased.

Luckily I was at home that week with nothing better to do, so I found an old bit of plastic and made a 10 mm packing peice to lift the battery terminals off the box it sits in, which was the cause of the terminals coming loose.
Drove to the garage he uses, and help thier 'apprentice' remove the battery, and the packing pieces, to find the exact same battery. He actually offered to cut the pastic box (which keeps out dirt) to make more space for the battery terminals. Shocked by the erm 'can do attitude' ??

At this point, I decided to be pragmatic. Get the new battery fitted, with my packing peice, and get them to test the charging circuit, and at least I've got a new battery, it's fitted to my satisfaction, because I actually did it myself in the end. It might not be exactly the same as spec'd by the manufacturer, but the differences in the mini one and the cooper is not the electrical system. A year later it's not a been a problem.
I didn't ring the dealer again to explain my 'dissatisfaction' that he a) refused to come to the house to sort it himself, and b) that his team of expert battery fitters, are erm "apprentice village idiots" .

He could have saved himself £50 I guess, by not fitting a new battery, and finding a suitable packing piece himself, but for anyone not experienced in basic car maintenance, it would have been a saga that went on for days or weeks.
We could have got him round eventually, to look, he would have got the car to a garage to fit the wrong battery, and 2 weeks later the battery lead would have fallen off again, and his happy customer would have been very disillulsioned. Have to say my wife knows nothing of the packing peices or the wrong battery still fitted, she thinks that it was just an unfortunate issue, and the right battery is now fitted. And she thinks that my intervention saved 24 hours so it was lucky I was off that week, but the dealer is a really nice bloke who is trying his best.

burlington6

I've always found the private sellers are actually less honest. They know there is a hidden expensive problem, that's why they want shut of it.

Horizon81

Richard53 wrote: »

2. 'Trade terms' has no meaning in law, and is an attempt to evade his repsonsibilities under the Sale of Goods Act. There is always a comeback against faulty goods in law (lots of discussion of this elsewhere in the forum) but 'trade terms' indicates the dealer wants nothing to do with it after it leaves the premises. Not a good sign.

A dealer near me often advertises part ex cars to clear as 'Trade Sale - No warranty given or implied'

Is this also a load of cobblers? He's a dealer so doesn't the buyer have the same rights regardles of which car they buy off him.

nobbysn*ts

castle96 wrote: »

2. What does sold on trade terms mean ?

It means you should walk away, as you'll never get anything other than a wreck, and a dealer that won't pay anything back even after you take him to court.

Richard53

Horizon81 wrote: »

A dealer near me often advertises part ex cars to clear as 'Trade Sale - No warranty given or implied'

Is this also a load of cobblers? He's a dealer so doesn't the buyer have the same rights regardles of which car they buy off him.

As I understand it, he is committing an offence even by advertising like this, as it suggests he is intending to discourage you from pursuing your rights under SOGA. Others will know the detail better. But regardless of that, the wording tells you that the guy will want nothing to do with you from the moment you leave the premises, and that is a very bad sign. You may be lucky and get a perfect car and never have to see him again, but chances are there will be a couple of small things to sort out, and it's major stress time. Very cheap (and treat it like a private sale, assuming no going back to the seller) or walk away.

castle96

many thanks for replies sofar