Fence Problem Neighbour

Fraise

I have a ground floor flat in a large converted house built in 1904. The house was converted into 4 separate flats many years ago, and the very large garden was divided into 4 separate gardens by fencing.

My flat is the right hand bottom side of the house (as you look at it from the street), and I reach my garden through French doors off my lounge. I have a fence on the side of my garden next to the driveway, which is my sole responsibility, and which I replaced last year.

There is a dividing fence at the end of my garden which backs onto my upstairs neighbours garden. It has been damaged in the storms and I wrote to him asking who is responsible for it, but had no response.

The fence dividing my garden with the one of my next door neighbour, who owns the ground floor flat at the other end of the house, that fence has come down too. It was in terrible condition, so cannot be claimed off insurance. However, I also wrote to him asking whose fence it is, and he replied back saying it is mine. I've asked him for proof, as I can't tell by my deeds, but he hasn't hot back to me.

We are all 4 co-freeholders by share of a company we formed , which owns the freehold, and we all have 999 year leases too.

Unfortunately my neighbours are difficult people to deal with, and it is difficult to deal with them, hence why all contact is via email. But I am wondering if it sounds correct that I would be responsible for the fences on both sides of my garden...I thought that usually you were responsible for just one? I also wondered if that being a conversion with segregated gardens we might have shared responsibility for adjoining fences?

There's nothing about it in the deeds or lease, so I thought I'd ask on here if anyone knew about fence law.

Many thanks.

princeofpounds

Just to check...

a) all these gardens are demised (allocated to) your individual leases? i.e. they are not communal or still owned by the freeholder outright?

b) what is your objective, to get the fences repaired and/or to avoid the cost of doing so?

There is no rule. If it is not mentioned in the deeds/leases then it will depend on who put the fence up originally. If that can't be divined then there may be other clues like the positioning of posts or the physical layout.

But even if you can prove who owns a fence, you likely can't make them replace it, so at best you get them to remove the old one and put one in yourself if you really want it.

You might like to cehck out the gardenlaw site and forums for more info.

SmlSave

Prince is right, there are no 'rules' as to boundary ownership - you could own both, all, one or they could be party boundaries.

It will be somewhere in the deeds so it might be an idea to pop into your local solicitor and see if they can advise so you know where you stand.

Its highly likely that if there are no 'T' marks on the deeds that the boundaries are party ones.

G_M

Bear in mind there is no legal obligation to maintain a fence. So even if you succeed in proving or convincing a neighbour that a particular fence is his, you still have to persuade him to fix it!

Furthermore, ownership of the physical fence is not the same as ownership of the boundary. The fence is owned by the person who bought it. If I go to a woodyard, buy a fence, and put it up on a boundary owned by my neighbour, the fence remains mine (though the neighbour has the right to remove it as it is causing a trespass on hiss land).

So the solution is ideally to discuss amicably and reach an agreement or failing that, if the neighbour just refuses and you really want the repair done, just repair it yourself...

carefullycautious

As you all share a freehold and manage the house and grounds yourselves why don't you all pay a share of the fences as and when they require replacing?

It makes sense really

ognum

It is interesting to me that both your neighbours have decided not to reply to you and you describe them all as difficult.

In this situation I would just get on and repair the fences to your garden if you want the fences repaired. Your relationships with your neighbours are clearly strained and I would just get on and do it myself for a quiet life.

On the other hand have you considered going to the land registry and for a few pounds you could get the land registry details and possible find the owners. But then of course you have the hassle of contact with your neighbours!

gordonbennet

carefullycautious wrote: »

As you all share a freehold and manage the house and grounds yourselves why don't you all pay a share of the fences as and when they require replacing?

This is what I thought too. However, when you have difficult neighbours unfortunately common sense often doesn't prevail!

The division may just have been done by the builder when the house was converted into flats and no precedent set for the future. And as fences often only need replacement every 15-20 years whoever undertook repairs in the past may never have been recorded. (When you bought the place, did the solicitor not ask the vendor to fill in a questionnaire with just these sorts of questions on it? You may have that with your paperwork?)

It's difficult to comment without seeing a plan of the garden, including the external fences (ie those between your building and other buildings or the road) - because someone will have to maintain those as well as their internal fence.

As there is ongoing ambiguity it seems best to propose to your freehold managing company (your own ltd co ??) that the fences are dealt with in the same way as roof repairs or foundations etc - assuming you have a fair arrangement for that!

Failing all of the above, just get them all repaired yourself (chances are it won't happen again during your tenure) and write to the neighbours saying that you have done this as a one-off and do not accept the ongoing maintenance. Insist that an agreement is reached for next time.

pinkshoes

Just pay for new fence and paint your neighbour's side a hideous colour.

Fraise

princeofpounds wrote: »

Just to check...

a) all these gardens are demised (allocated to) your individual leases? i.e. they are not communal or still owned by the freeholder outright?

b) what is your objective, to get the fences repaired and/or to avoid the cost of doing so?

There is no rule. If it is not mentioned in the deeds/leases then it will depend on who put the fence up originally. If that can't be divined then there may be other clues like the positioning of posts or the physical layout.

But even if you can prove who owns a fence, you likely can't make them replace it, so at best you get them to remove the old one and put one in yourself if you really want it.

You might like to cehck out the gardenlaw site and forums for more info.

In answer to your question A) No, the gardens are not communal. It was one huge garden that's been divided into four separate gardens with fencing dividing them all. The freehold is a limited company owned by the four of us, so we each have one quarter share of the freehold.

Question I want the fence replaced as it's fallen down. It can't be repaired as it's very old and was falling to bits before the storm. I don't mind paying to replace it, providing I am liable for the cost, but as my neighbours are difficult people and never like to pay for anything or get any work done - even though they're in breach of the lease - I wouldn't be surprised if my neighbour would make out I was liable for the fence to avoid paying for it himself. Since I emailed them and asked them whose responsibility it is my immediate neighbour whose garden is adjacent to mine, emailed me back and said it was my fence and to get it done ASAP. The fence has been down for almost a month and I'm the first person to mention it, the others have ignored the problem (as is typical of them), but I thought I'd give them a chance to contct me first. Sometimes miracles happen.

Anyway, as soon as my neighbour did respone (which was first for him) I straight away replied to him saying I was happy to pay for a new fence, providing he could show me something to prove I am responsible. He has lived here for 20 plus years and I have been here for six - so I would assume he'd have more knowledge than me - and when I did move in at first. he approached me and said he was charge of any problems re the maintenance etc. But since replying to him asking for proof of who owns the fence he has ignored me. And knowing the way he's behaved for the last six years he will never reply to me about it, or he will keep stalling for time.

In the six years I have been here not one repair has been carried out to the property, except for two repairs, which I arranged myself, and despite me paying into a maintenance fund for such works. They too pay into the fund, so it baffles me why they refuse to have urgent and important works carried out. I have two leaks coming into two of my bedrooms, and have done for months. Because the leaking roof is only affecting my flat they're not bothered, and so they are being obstructive and preventing me from having the repairs done. I've had over ten quotes from different roofers to say what the problem is, but they're refusing to have the leaks repaired.

I call that difficult.

The newest neighbour, who styles himself as chairman, said he wants a surveyors report done instead. That means paying about £700 out the maintenance fund to be told there are two leaks in the roof, which have been identified and photographed by a team of roofers. In fact, the surveyor did come round, and came inside my flat, and agreed that the leaks needed repairing urgently. He too photographed the damage caused by the leaks, and asked me why we wanted a surveyors report when it was clear to see by anyone that the roof is leaking. He actually said his fee would have been better spent going towards the repairs. Furthermore, the fund is for maintenance and repairs only, it isn't meant for surveyor reports.

Neither is it meant for paying to have private gardening done (something the self styled chairman wanted to do for his front hedge and neighbouring tree). Neither is the fund meant to pay for the hiring of a flaming conference room in a hotel for one of our meetings that consists of just four of us, three of whom live within spitting distance!

Before the CHAIRMAN moved in last May I managed to arrange just two meetings to discuss maintenance etc, and I held them in my flat. Easy. But the chairman doesn't see fit to do that. He also charges drinks at the hotel to the company, even though we are not a profit making tax benefit company. He doesn't realise we are paying for conference rooms and drinks out of the maintenance fund. Neither do the other two muppets realise that. The maintenance fund is for MAINTENANCE.

They like to play at being directors, and giving themselves titles (lol) since we formed the company in May of last year, but they don't get any flaming work done! The nitty gritty.

I can't go ahead and order the works as the cheque book needs two signatories and all co-freeholders have to agree.

Another example of how difficult and inept they are is, a great big pine tree of about 30 foot in height fell down in the storm about a month ago. It's fallen onto the top of two garages at the end of the driveway, which belong to two of them. It's clear to see to everyone, probably the whole street. After nothing happening I emailed them and said it should be removed, and that would be covered by the fund, but they have ignored me and the tree is just lying there.

I don't know what other people think, and maybe I'm just flaming pernickety, but because I don't want water pouring into my bedrooms, dead trees laying on top of garages, rotten old fallen fences flapping in the wind, the exterior all grubby and dirty from the blocked gutters....I guess it must be me who's the difficult one, and they're just being normal!

Fraise

Please excuse typos but I'm typing on my ipad and it keeps using predictive text.

gordonbennet

What a nightmare. Sounds like the fence is the least of your problems!

You don't have to like your neighbours, but in your situation you need to have a good, grown up, business-like relationship. Sounds like they are very challenging neighbours. I don't know what to suggest, other than trying one last time to explain the situation(s) and why you feel the maintenance fund should pay. If they don't, do all you can to change the way you operate the freehold - eg employ a company to manage it for you. They'll charge a fee, but it may not be much more than your hotel meeting room and bar bill!

Where is the other freeholder in all this? Sensible or also a nightmare? Can you get him/her on your side?