NRP possibly commited crime

jjj1980

Lovetoread wrote: »

I agree with Poppie68 & DUTR.

It's only going to cause you more stress. You've stated the kids don't see their father, so I can only assume you don't either and you're quite bitter about it (apologies if I'm utterly wrong). I think it would be far healthier to focus all your energy on bringing up your children as best as you can.

I'd like to throw something out there, this may back fire on me and I apologise if anyone takes offence. If you and the father were still together, or you and any partner for that matter, and they were earning a bit of extra cash in hand and not declaring it (I'm not talking thousands here, but maybe a couple of hundred a month), would you force them to be honest, declare it and pay tax on it? I don't think so. This is kinda similar, in a way.

Good luck to you and your children for the future.

I really had to reply to part of this as it really made me :mad:

Not all partners would allow the type of behaviour you are suggesting!! To do so would be criminal. My ex-husband, whilst we were still together admitted to me that he had lied about registering as self-employed and that was actually working whilst not declaring and had also started a claim for JSA. First two calls I made????...... HMRC and Jobcentre and told them exactly what he was doing.

It's really offensive to insinuate someone would go along with a crime just because it might benefit them to do so in the short-term!!


To the OP, many won't agree with me but I am in similar position to you, my ex is doing his utmost to avoid paying child support but there is NO WAY I will ever turn down the pressure on the CSA. I set aside time once a week to call them and push as much as possible for action. At the same time, I follow up the complaints via the MPs to the CSA. Once the call is finished, my time for the rest of the week belongs to my little girl. Fighting for child support does not have to rule your life as some let it get but you do not have to just accept what you know to be wrong. Good luck with the tribunals, hope the outcomes are what you are wanting.

HoneyNutLoop

pemalu wrote: »

Hi,

I'll try to cut long story short as the long story is very complicated. NRP reported a much lower income to CSA so I appealed in August 2012 for June 2012 decision. In 2013 Tribunal agreed that the pay NRP received and payslips shown (May-July 2012) did not accruately reflect normal amount of earnings.

Through the tribunal's paperwork, I learned that in April 2012 he earned a lot more than what CSA considered but as this is April and the Tribunal was considering June's decision, this is a different decision than what was appealed.

The April's decision was never previously appealed as I didn't have this paper. However, it is obvious now that CSA had a different amount of earnings when making the April's decision.

At the moment, I have opportunity to go to Upper Tribunal with regard to the June's decision.

How do I go about appealing the April's decision, now that it appears NRP had submitted payslip which is not reflective to his earning?

What would happen if he is commiting crime? He is currently on DOE.

Many thanks for your input.

Ok, the answers to this depend on if the CSA made a decision about his income in April, and you now know this is wrong or if there is no decision from April but you have learned as a result of the decision from June that from April the NRP was earning a lot more.

If there is already an existing decision from April and the NRP misrepresented his circumstances when asked by the CSA, they can and should go back and correct that calculation to reflect the true facts. You do not need to appeal the decision in order for the CSA to do this, and because the basis for revision is misrepresentation, there are no time limits. As others have said, the CSA have the power to prosecute for misrepresentation (if found guilty by a court, the punishment is a fine payable to the treasury not prison) but it is unlikely they would pursue this course of action.

If there isn't a decision from April, I.e. neither you nor the NRP asked for a review of the maintenance payments in April, only in June, there's no going back now. The fact he was earning more from April but didn't volunteer this information to instigate the review of his payments is not legally the same as misrepresentation. There is no legal requirement for him to proactively notify this type of change in his circumstances, only that if he is asked about his circumstances by the CSA he provides truthful information.

Lovetoread

shoe*diva79 wrote: »

Altho I can see what you mean here, i dont think its similar because if her partner was earning some cash in hand then it would be going to benefit the household - including the children. If the children's father is doing it now its not benefitting the children whatsoever.

Yes you're probably right, point taken.

jjj1980 wrote: »

I really had to reply to part of this as it really made me :mad:

Not all partners would allow the type of behaviour you are suggesting!! To do so would be criminal. My ex-husband, whilst we were still together admitted to me that he had lied about registering as self-employed and that was actually working whilst not declaring and had also started a claim for JSA. First two calls I made????...... HMRC and Jobcentre and told them exactly what he was doing.

It's really offensive to insinuate someone would go along with a crime just because it might benefit them to do so in the short-term!!

Yes, it's criminal, I'm not suggesting it isn't. I think you've missed the point here. It's like speeding in a car - it's against the law but everyone does at some point, even if it's by 2 mph over the limit, it's still a criminal offence.

Someone working a few extra hours in a pub, for example, for cash in hand, while working full-time else where, therefore already paying tax, isn't that bad. Claiming benefits whilst working on the sly is totally wrong, agreed. However if you're already paying tax, which the OP's ex obviously is as he is working, it's not so bad working an extra few hours here and there.

Like I said in my post, I apologise if I upset anyone.

FBaby

How much is he providing? Is it £20 a week in which case, any extra £5 would make a difference, or is it a case of him lying because he is already contributing a very large amount, which represent significantly more than 50% of what the child cost, but you are desperate to get anything you can?

CSAworkerx

Im struggling to grasp what crime he has commited?

"I learned that in April 2012 he earned a lot more than what CSA considered"

That is not a crime, its not a criminal offense to lie to the csa, if it was, prisons would be at maximum capacity right now.

the only "crime" i can think he might have commited would have been if the nrp was told by the COURTS to submit to THEM his april payslip.

ive read, and re-read your post numerous times and the only thing hes done wrong is lie about his income to us, which again i say is not a criminal offense.

HoneyNutLoop

CSAworkerx wrote: »

Im struggling to grasp what crime he has commited?

"I learned that in April 2012 he earned a lot more than what CSA considered"

That is not a crime, its not a criminal offense to lie to the csa, if it was, prisons would be at maximum capacity right now.

the only "crime" i can think he might have commited would have been if the nrp was told by the COURTS to submit to THEM his april payslip.

ive read, and re-read your post numerous times and the only thing hes done wrong is lie about his income to us, which again i say is not a criminal offense.

Actually, it is a criminal offence to lie to the CSA. Page 27 of your booklet: https://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg.../dg_198849.pdf

Excerpt:
"It is a criminal offence If a person:
Fails to give us information when we ask for it; or
Gives us information that they know is false.
If convicted, they can be fined up to £1000."

In the period from April to September 13, 10 convictions have been obtained for this offence. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/child-support-agency-quarterly-summary-statistics-september-2013

CSAworkerx

so in 6 months 10 people were convicted? i have the same number of people lie to me in about 2-3 days, thats not exaggerating either unfortunately prelude will probably be able to back me on this, s/c and income is lied about so much its hard to take anyone seriously, so i stand corrected, it does seem a criminal conviction, but i wouldn't bank on anyone getting convicted for it

HoneyNutLoop

No, but saying something isn't a criminal offence is very different than saying people aren't frequently prosecuted.

pemalu

Thank you for your responses. Sorry for the delay, I've been down with bad flu.

jjj1980, thank you for your advise, me too am not 'obsessed' but I do feel there is certain responsibility NRP should carry and if he cannot be bothered doing any parenting then he should at least pay the maintenance that he should. I work full time, there's no way I can be obsessed about it, too busy with other things! If anything, there's very little time I have to chase things up, tribunal papers usually end up being sent by special delivery in order to meet deadlines. Best wishes to you and your children.

Just to clarify, I'm not after my ex to be imprisoned, I just want him to provide what he should, whatever his earning is. I think I'll be guilty towards my children if I don't fight for them. It is their welfare after all.

CSAworkerx, sorry if there are missing details as I tried to cut story short. I don't know if tribunal used a payslip or not but in the Tribunal's statement of reasons, it is mentioned that one of the evidence used was April earning (did not say the exact doc used) which was X amount.

This X amount is a lot higher than when CSA also made a decision back in April. I don't know how CSA made that decision back in April, I presume it's a payslip. I got a copy of his P60 from Tribunal but not his April earning, I don't know what they use. My ex works in finance, I think he would be able to create mock payslip. Once I was in position where my employer overpaid me. I told them and asked them to reprint payslip with correct earning and they did; so I believe this can be done. At the time they outsourced their payroll; I get a different type of slip (no writing that it's not original) and it has all the details of a payslip with a different amount.

I just rang CSA and was told that what I can do is write to them and ask for a review based on new information that is now available to me. They are likely to refuse this but then it opens up an appeal process.

pemalu

Honeynutloop, the link does not work http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg.../dg_198849.pdf

Do you remember the title of the booklet? Many thanks.