Yet another fake UKPC ticket on my own parking space

grinderx

Hello all,

I 'm another what it seems to be somehow usual case of having a fake ticket on my allocated parking space (UKPC "permit" fell off the dashboard and I didn't notice). I 've already read the newbies sticky thread as well as the advices from the parking cowboys, adviceguide.org.uk and some other similar to mine cases here:

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4822406
forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4818110
forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77121

I guess what differentiates with the above cases are the following:

1. I 'm a tenant and not the actual owner of the flat.
2. There is a property management firm for the development I live, but they are not the landowners of the flat.
3. The actual landowner (a very polite pensioner *) deals with an estate agent (which by the way are very helpful all these years I live in the particular development).

I recently got the Notice to Keeper letter. I think that it complies with the POFA 2012. My understanding by reading all the latest advices is that I need to start with an appeal to UKPC (fortunatelly I 'm still within the 28 days limit, I received the "Notice to Keeper" when I was away). Questions I have though:

1. Should I use their on-line form and/or email or is it better to post a written letter?
2. Should I include a copy of the "permit" in the appeal?
3. Since I 'm not the owner, but the legal tenant, is the following a good template to use: forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=63792885&postcount=23
4. Should I copy the very same appeal/letter to the management firm as well?
5. According to this article here: moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets , there is no case for clamping my car, right?

Thanks very much for any feedback


* Himelf had problems as well with that scam UKPC when he first got the flat few years ago :doh:

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2

1. both
2 if you want
3, why not
4, no but send a stiff letter
5, thats right clamping is banned

Coupon-mad

If you search this forum for the keywords 'UKPC tenant' or 'UKPC flat' you will find loads of exmples of cases just like this, including their POPLA appeal wording. ONLY read threads from the Summer onwards (anything older is too old!).

Use the 'search this forum' heading next to 'forum tools' on page one and change the default search to 'show posts' instead of 'show threads' (the latter always gives a list of random threads and is a fairly useless result!).

4consumerrights

Do the terms of your tenancy agreement state that you need to display a permit? - Have you actually checked their photographic evidence alleging you did not display the permit - as often their photos are C*AP.

So the landlord himself was troubled by UKPC first - maybe this could be why he is letting it. The management company is on a bonus scheme of 10% of all parking charges received as a rebate - yet they do not have any proprietary interest in the property.

Does your rent include the management fees?

UKPC's NtK regularly do not comply with ALL the requirements under POFA 2012 for pursuit of the keeper - check out your notice with the links in the NEWBIE thread and/or the BPA's COP for what information is required.

I would recommend you appeal on line and by post also - get a free certificate of posting from the post office.
However the PO BOX office number in the RK's letter, and their registered offices are both mail drop offices, and well the trading address given on website is also a flat cited as an address by a director of another PPC.

grinderx

Thanks very much people. Being a busy day. Hopefully, I 'll come back to it tomorrow evening after reading more carefully your useful feedback

The_Deep

The whole point of these parking management schemes is to syop people with two cars and one space parking on access roads,visitors spaces, and in other peoples. parking spots, it is not to "fine" people for parking in their own spaces. This should be pressed home to the management company.

I have a similar problem when I visit one of my flats where parking is controlled by a push button barrier. I can rarely park in a visitors space as one of the usual suspects is parked there.

I have complained many times to the management company, and they say that, apart from appointing a PPC, there is little that they can do. I spoke strongly against this at the last AGM

Another flat I own is mainly controlled by UKPC, and I am taking steps to convince the landlord, a HA, that they should sack them. However, I have only owned this flat for two weeks, and the HA have not yet contacted me, so I am not holding my breathe.

grinderx

4consumerrights wrote: »

Do the terms of your tenancy agreement state that you need to display a permit? - Have you actually checked their photographic evidence alleging you did not display the permit - as often their photos are C*AP.

So the landlord himself was troubled by UKPC first - maybe this could be why he is letting it. The management company is on a bonus scheme of 10% of all parking charges received as a rebate - yet they do not have any proprietary interest in the property.

Does your rent include the management fees?

UKPC's NtK regularly do not comply with ALL the requirements under POFA 2012 for pursuit of the keeper - check out your notice with the links in the NEWBIE thread and/or the BPA's COP for what information is required.

I would recommend you appeal on line and by post also - get a free certificate of posting from the post office.
However the PO BOX office number in the RK's letter, and their registered offices are both mail drop offices, and well the trading address given on website is also a flat cited as an address by a director of another PPC.

A quick reply/update:

1. The only think written in my tenancy agreement (Schedule 2: Inventory and schedule of condition) is this:

Allocated parking with parking permit No ###

Nothing more than that.

2. From the Notice to Keeper letter the photo seems to be a good one.

3. The landowner lives elsewhere and this has nothing to do with UKPC

4. I never deal with the property management firm. Never payed them any money. Just receive some of their letters from time to time (which are sent to all the tenants/landowners anyway). I always deal with the estate agent and only them. Having said that I called both the agent and the property management firm and and unless I understood wrong I confirmed that the allocated parking space is NOT a common space, but actually comes with the flat (I believe this is written in the contract that the landowner signed when he got the flat). Also the agent said that it's OK to use their name in order to support me on this

5. I 'll check again about POFA 2012 compliance like you suggested.

6. So, it doesn't matter if I send the appeal on the PO BOX or the register address as long as I send it to a UKPC address and get a receipt (or certificate of posting as you call it, is it different??) which proves that I did try to communicate with them.

I 'll try and search more similar cases as suggested above by Coupon-mad and try to compile an appeal (by the way yesterday I received the Final Notice which states that I have another 14 days in order to either appeal or pay the fake ticket).

Coupon-mad

Send the appeal to the address specifically stated for appeals. Don't use a registered address as it won't be the right one unless stated to be so on the Notice where it tells you where to send an appeal. Cert of Posting is a PO receipt for the letter (free at the counter, shows the postcode & date). Keep it.

grinderx

Thanks Coupon. Will do

Guys_Dad

On the point of the tenancy agreement, if the management company have, with the agreement of the leaseholders, employed a PPC and the leaseholder hasn't put this in your tenancy agreement, then that is the leaseholder's omission and you have a claim against him.

I am NOT supporting the PPC and you should follow the advice here on how to get than monkey off your back, but tenancy agreements need to be drawn up in conjunction with all restrictive clauses in the lease, although they often do not do this.

grinderx

Finally, got some time to read other threads and compile the "soft" appeal:

As the registered keeper of (reg) I 'm in receipt of your Notice to Keeper letter (dated ######) with regards to Parking Charge Notice ###### (dated ######). I wish to invoke your appeals process as all liability to your company is denied on the following grounds:

1. As the registered keeper I can advise you that this vehicle always has the permit displayed on the dashboard and in addition, my landlord and myself as the legal tenant have an exclusive right to allow vehicles to be parked in the two assigned bays. As such, I consider your operative was in fact trespassing in my assigned bays when your Parking Charge Notice was placed on my vehicle.
2. You are not the landowner and do not have the capacity to offer contracts or to bring a claim for trespass. Therefore, neither the driver nor the registered keeper have signed any contract or agreed to any parking Terms and Conditions with your company.
3. The amount charged does not reflect your genuine pre-estimate of loss, as either my landlord or me as the legal tenant do not charge to park vehicles in the assigned bays.
4. In your Notice to Keeper letter you have failed to identify the creditor who is legally entitled to recover the Parking Charge as highlighted in Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA (Protection of Freedom Acts) 2012.
5. In your Notice to Keeper letter you have failed to offer any discount for payment within 14 days. The discount should be at least 40% of the full charge under the BPA Code of Practice

The above legal points mean that your Notice to Keeper letter is invalid. Therefore the condition set out in paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012 has not been complied with. Failure to comply with paragraph 6 means that the registered keeper cannot be held to account for the alleged debt of the driver.

I trust that this now clarifies the situation regarding the above matter and look forward to receiving your written confirmation of cancellation by return for this charge. As any permission to issue parking charges has been revoked by myself as the legal tenant and register keeper, please now ensure that my registration number is noted on your list so that no further parking charges are issued.

However, if you reject this challenge I require you to forward me a POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) verification code within 35 days in order to appeal independently, per the POPLA web site. Moreover, in case you insist on taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

As the registered keeper I have nothing further to add and will not respond to any correspondence from your company unless it contains the POPLA code. Any communication that does not either confirm cancellation or include a POPLA verification code shall be reported to the BPA (British Parking Association) as a breach of their Code of Practice - the BPA recently issued guidance to all members to remind them of this fact. Such communication may also be deemed harassment and pursued accordingly.


Regards,

PS Please, find attached a copy of my parking permit.

I 'm not sure about points 4 and 5 though and whether I should include them or not. With regards to point 4, I can't find any clear reference to the creditor. For point 5 I consulted the parking cowboys here: parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/ I also read the BPA Code of Practice and PoFA 2012, but couldn't understand if I 'm right, especially for point 5. Hopefully, I 'll scan the Notice to Keeper letters I received and upload them first thing tomorrow morning. Thanks people