Started car in gear! Doh! Starter motor now dud?

TrickyWicky

Richard53 wrote: »

At work we have a Sealey Road Start (RS1224) which we bought for starting large vehicles and keep for general use. Our legal guys advised us to contact Sealey to see if it was suitable for using with cars owned by the general public (from the nature of the business, we get a few requests). Sealey's response was that we were not advised to use the unit on any car with modern electronics, and since there is no easy way for the non-specialist to tell the difference, we don't use it at all, except with company vehicles where we know the electrics are basic.

I was fairly cynical about this, having jump-started countless vehicles over the years, but seeing it writing from Sealey made me think again. The possible liability claim for frying a customer's expensive motor is huge, and not a risk my employer is prepared to take.

At a place I worked at moons ago we used to jump start customer cars almost every day. Everything from old bangers to the latest and most expensive vehicles on the market. Not once did we ever suffer a fried ECU. Granted we always had customers fill in a disclaimer just in case but it never happened.

I have a renault thats known to be sensitive to jump starts and have an iffy ECU. I've jumped it numerous times, jump started other people from it numerous times and even shorted the battery once with the jump leads after jump starting someone else. It's never had an issue. This is a car that is supposed to be known for its fragility.

I think many people these days get far too scared thanks to the nanny state mentality going round.

reddwarf2002

I owned a Rover 600 once and had to jump start it. It resulted in the airbag light coming on. I then had to have it resetted by Rover dealer at a cost of £50. I probably could have done it by disconnecting the battery but back then I didn't know. Since then I have always been wary of jump starting any car.

colino

An airbag warning trigger is more likely (and abs too) when attempting to start the car when the original battery was under volts.

cubegame

And so it was that a new starter has me sorted. Cheers for everyone's help.

Richard53

TrickyWicky wrote: »

At a place I worked at moons ago we used to jump start customer cars almost every day. Everything from old bangers to the latest and most expensive vehicles on the market. Not once did we ever suffer a fried ECU. Granted we always had customers fill in a disclaimer just in case but it never happened.

...

I think many people these days get far too scared thanks to the nanny state mentality going round.

From what I understand, the risk of a voltage spike damaging the ECU is rare but not unknown. For my employer, the potential liability is massive. Start with vehicle recovery costs, several hundred quid for a new ECU plus associated works, perhaps a night or two in a hotel for a family of five while the car is fixed, and then the consequential losses of getting the family home perhaps several hundred miles, loss of earnings, hurt feelings, the lot. And all for a service which we were offering free, as a courtesy.

Our legal bods say that it is not worth the hassle, even with a disclaimer, so if a customer has a flat battery, we call the AA, RAC or local garage, depending, and the customer bears the cost of that. It's a shame we can't help out, but that is the litigious world we live in.

The method described by Stooby2 above is the only one recommended as safe by Sealey.

vaio

Richard53 wrote: »

At work we have a Sealey Road Start (RS1224) which we bought for starting large vehicles and keep for general use. Our legal guys advised us to contact Sealey to see if it was suitable for using with cars owned by the general public (from the nature of the business, we get a few requests). Sealey's response was that we were not advised to use the unit on any car with modern electronics, and since there is no easy way for the non-specialist to tell the difference, we don't use it at all, except with company vehicles where we know the electrics are basic.

I was fairly cynical about this, having jump-started countless vehicles over the years, but seeing it writing from Sealey made me think again. The possible liability claim for frying a customer's expensive motor is huge, and not a risk my employer is prepared to take.

That sounds like backside covering by the office junior who doesn't really understand the unit.

The whole point of the unit is for starting vehicles with flat batteries and I'd have thought that if damage was likely to occur then they would mention it in the instructions. http://www.sealey.co.uk/pdfs/Instructions/RS1224_V2.PDF

TrickyWicky

Stooby2 wrote: »

I have been taught that you shouldn't jump start modern cars as the voltages can spike, damaging the the numerous ECU's that modern cars have.

Rather, you should connect the two cars in the normal way, ignition off on the broken car, start the good car and let it run for ten minutes or so, revving occasionally, to get some charge into the broken car. Then stop the engine, disconnect and try and see if the broken car will start.

Thing is nearly all cars these days are ECU driven and have an immobiliser - part of the ECU. Therefore even if you do it the way you mention above, the ECU is still live when you connect the other vehicles battery to the flat battery. There will still be that initial voltage spike regardless and the ECU will still be powered from it.

Yes ABS lights and all sorts can come on. Typically because the battery was flat in the first place and the ECU has detected that something somewhere isn't working properly and raises it as an error. My car brings up the brakes as a problem when it has a flat battery just like it brings up the injection system when the fuel pressure is too low due to it having a blocked filter.

Richard53

vaio wrote: »

That sounds like backside covering by the office junior who doesn't really understand the unit.

The whole point of the unit is for starting vehicles with flat batteries and I'd have thought that if damage was likely to occur then they would mention it in the instructions. http://www.sealey.co.uk/pdfs/Instructions/RS1224_V2.PDF

To be fair, Sealey did mention the technique described by Stooby2 above (ign off, link batteries, charge for 10 minutes, disconnect, start dead vehicle) as the only method they would recommend. We deemed it too much hassle to bother with.. We bought the unit for our own vehicles, and basically, if there is so much hassle about using the unit for modern vehicles, why bother? It's not like we were getting paid for it.

I don't have the letter to hand, as someone else is doing that job now and it's in his filing system, but I seem to recall the letter was from their 'Head of Technical Services' or some such, not the Saturday kid.

vaio

Richard53 wrote: »

To be fair, Sealey did mention the technique described by Stooby2 above (ign off, link batteries, charge for 10 minutes, disconnect, start dead vehicle) as the only method they would recommend........

yep, but if that is the method Sealey recommend then you'd have thought they would put it in the instructions rather than the "ign off, link batteries, charge for 10 minutes, start dead vehicle, then disconnect" they actually put in the instructions.

In fact, given the costs of blown up car electronics vs the profit they make on the Road Start I'm sure that if there was an issue they would have stopped selling them long ago, and that's before you consider the logic of producing a portable jump start unit but them telling people they can't use it for jump starting vehicles despite the instructions clearly saying different

My vote stays with work experience bottom covering

Richard53

I am 100% sure it is fundament concealment at some level. And more likely to be a senior employee aware of the ability of some people to sue for every broken nail, rather than a spotty yoof with no clue. But we can agree to disagree on that. :beer:

If it were my own vehicle, however modern, I wouldn't hesitate to use the device, and accept the tiny risk that it entails. But that's my risk with my money. Offering a service, even free of charge, to the public is a different ball game.

Anyway, the OP has got the problem sorted, and has been kind enough to return to the thread and let us know, so it's all good.