PCN for work (University) didn't receive NTK

heff54

Hi all,
Thanks so much for this forum - so useful! I've read all the advice and would like to run my approach past you all if that's OK?

I received a letter from Car Parking Partnership yesterday (dated 13th Jan 2014) for a CPN incurred on 25/10/13 at the university where I work. I have an 'occasional driver permit' which means that I pay the uni for a load of vouchers and then display one each day park - I forgot to do this on this occasion and got the ticket on my windscreen. I had seen this forum so thought I’d wait for the notice to keeper to arrive but it didn’t and I had forgotten about it until the letter arrived yesterday.

The letter says that it's now too late to supply the name of the driver or to make a representation against the CPN and that they're going to pass my details to a debt collection service within 14 days.

I am trying to get the university to cancel it (realise now I should have done that immediately!) but want to do something in the meantime in case they say no.

I’m worried that it’s too late to appeal – the time period for the NTK coincided with me moving house so it is possible that it's got lost somehow but I definitely didn't receive it! This is the letter that I was going to send - do you think it looks OK? Anything else I can do?

Thanks so much for any help,

Your ref: XXX

Dear Sir/Madam,

FORMAL APPEAL TO NOTICE TO KEEPER, UNDER THE POFA 2012
This is my appeal. I am the registered keeper of the car mentioned in your Notice to Keeper that was dated 09/01/14. I was surprised to see you are demanding £75 from myself as the keeper, when of course you have missed the deadline to establish 'keeper liability' under POFA 2012.

Your Notice alleges an incident on 25/10/13 and if you had wanted to establish keeper liability under the POFA 2012 you were duty bound under the Act, to ensure that a compliant Notice to Keeper was served between day 29 and day 56. I have not received a compliant Notice to Keeper.

So my appeal is based on these facts:
1. You did not send a NTK so I am not liable (the driver will not be divulged so don't ask and don't pretend you have the powers to insist. You don't).
2. The car is covered by a permit, so the driver was not trespassing and there was no loss nor damage caused by the parking event. Under the BPA CoP, a PCN for 'breach of terms' (as you allege) must only be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The permit was attached at all times to the windscreen of the vehicle.
3. The only contract to park is with the University and all payments are up to date.
4. Car Parking Partnership is a mere agent who does not own the land, so you have no standing to make any contracts with drivers nor to pursue these charges in your name. If you allege you do, then you will need to show your landowner/client contract to POPLA and myself at the second stage appeal.
I invite you to cancel this charge since you can see that you have no cause to pursue it now that I have pointed out the flaws. As there is not a Notice to Keeper, I am not liable in law. But under the BPA CoP, clause 22.14, you must consider appeals from registered keepers because they are entitled to appeal to POPLA.

So if after careful consideration you decide to reject this appeal, you must send me a POPLA code without further ado, as was reminded to the BPA in the recent POPLA Newsletter (Nov 2013). Or you can confirm that the charge is cancelled.

My challenge is based on the assertion that your parking charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss to yourself or the landowner. In every case where a motorist has raised this issue, POPLA have accepted the appeal. You are therefore fully aware that there is no prospect of your charge being upheld. If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

Yours,

name of keeper

martmonk

heff54 wrote: »

Hi all,
I have an 'occasional driver permit' which means that I pay the uni for a load of vouchers and then display one each day park - I forgot to do this on this occasion and got the ticket on my windscreen.

2. The car is covered by a permit, so the driver was not trespassing and there was no loss nor damage caused by the parking event. Under the BPA CoP, a PCN for 'breach of terms' (as you allege) must only be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The permit was attached at all times to the windscreen of the vehicle.

nobody here is going to agree with you lying. Make the GPEOL point but without the lie.

The rest seems fine to me.

heff54

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. I do have a permit (tax disc like) which is permanently in the windscreen so I meant that I wasn't trespassing, but I also need to display the voucher on the dash (which I wasn't on this occasion).

Thanks, glad it looks OK!

martmonk

OK my mistake, I'll leave the post in place though so yours continues to make sense

Coupon-mad

heff54 wrote: »

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. I do have a permit (tax disc like) which is permanently in the windscreen so I meant that I wasn't trespassing, but I also need to display the voucher on the dash (which I wasn't on this occasion).

Thanks, glad it looks OK!

Yep you have used one of my appeals I had forgotten I had written ages ago, and it is suitable for your case. If CPP say they did send a NTK earlier then ask for a copy of it for your records so you can 'make an informed decision'. Then ignore them if they don't send you a POPLA code!

You will find the whole unexciting & predictable debt collector letter-chain if you Google, or search this forum, for keywords 'PS&P collector'. The PS&P letters are pretty amusing threatograms if you are expecting their rubbish!

And CPP don't do court - at least there were certainly no small claims by them in the last 12 months (we have the Court records by FOI) and I can't recall ANY before that either. So you are playing this right by attempting an appeal, setting out your case and not implying who was driving. Can't hurt at all and may even get you a POPLA code if you are lucky.

Do tell us if they say they haven't sent a NTK or don't have to - or if they try to make you name the driver.

heff54

Yes I pinched it from a previous thread - thanks ever so much, I thought it was excellent!

I will keep you updated.

I'm waiting to hear if the university will cancel it and hope they will. Am I right in thinking that the threat that they will pass it on to a debt collector if I don't pay within 14 days is not correct as they have to get a court order to do that?

Coupon-mad

Nope, you are muddling up a debt collector with a bailiff. They need a court order for a bailiff.

Debt collectors just send letters, and before we had POPLA to win, we ignored these letter chains for years and years on this forum. I have a collection myself, and lots of links are shown in the 'PPC letter chains' sticky thread, click on the old pre-Oct 2012 link to an MSE thread with lots of debt collector letters people have laughed at over the years. Debt collectors don't turn up on your doorstep to 'collect' anything!

heff54

Ah, got it now. Thanks so much

heff54

Hi,

Grrr so, the university said that they won't cancel the notice and I've just had this letter from CPP:

Civil Parking Notice:
Vehicle Registration Number:
Location of contravention:
Parked in:

Please be advised that you were previously sent a Notice to Keeper. This notice stated you were required to do one of the following within 28 days from the date on the notice:

1. Pay the outstanding amount £75 if you were the driver of the vehicle. OR:
2. If you were not the driver, provide us with the full name of the driver of the vehicle and their current address where a notice can be served on them. (You are also required to pass this notice to the driver.) OR:

3. Make a representation against / challenge the issue of the CPN.

You did not do any of the above therefore you were issued with the Keeper Liability Notice. This notice clearly advised you:

It is now too late to supply the name of the driver or to make representation against the CPN. You are therefore requested to pay the amount still outstanding of £75, by not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the day after the date on which this Keeper Liability Notice is given.

Car Parking Partnership is now not able to accept an appeal and will not enter into any further correspondence regarding this Notice. Please therefore make payment of £75 within 14 days from the date on this letter in order to conclude the matter.

So, can I check that the plan now should just be to keep all the letters and sit tight and ignore any further correspondence unless it's court papers?

Or should I send this, based on thread on pepipoo:
I'm tempted to say that I strongly dispute the charge and that they will not be able to demonstrate a genuine pre-estimate of loss - indeed it is exactly the opposite as I have evidence of the payment that I made to the University for the parking permit for the period.

Dear xx

There is nothing whatsoever to prevent your company from considering a challenge at any stage
Refusing access to your industry's alternative dispute resolution procedure would be unreasonable and a breach of the Civil Procedure Rules

It is well-established case law that, in the event of legal action, your company would be liable for the full costs of the claim regardless of outcome

As far as I am concerned, I have made a valid challenge (date) and the clock is running
If I do not receive a clear rejection along with a POPLA code within 35 days of the above date, I will regard the challenge as accepted and the matter closed

Thanks for all the help

Redx

you can deffo challenge at any stage, but they may not give you a popla code, in which case you could do so again at LBC stage if it ever gets that far, so be better for you if you do so now and then again if it goes to LBC in the future

then just ignore DC letters and see if you get an LBC or court papers, or a popla code, or cancellation

it is also the case that if the driver is different you can name that driver up to and including LBC stage to reset the clock

Coupon-mad

It is also the case that if the driver is different you can name that driver up to and including LBC stage to reset the clock.

ONLY if it's a Postal PCN which this will not have been, not a permit issue with CPP (they use onsite security bods to ticket cars). Not a case to name the driver.