Mobile phone cashback claim rejected :-(

don9999

After having bought numerous mobiles from a variety of companies over many years, and successfully claimed cashback on every one of them, I have finally had one claim refused :-(

At the end of the day, I know the risks etc, and will put it down to experience, so not overly bothered.
But wondered if anyone has had a similar issue.....

This phone was connected in early Jan 2013, and cashback requirements were as follows:
"The cashback is claimable in five installments over the initial duration of the airtime agreement, during billing months 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 from the date of connection"

For my first claim, I submitted the bill from month 6, being July 2013. It was successful and paid up :-)

For my second claim, I submitted the bill from month 9, being Oct 2013. This was rejected :-(
The reason given was that their T&Cs required the '9 month bill' which would have been Sept 2013.

I understand the logic 'now' being applied that they are requiring the '9th bill I have received'. Since connection was in early January, I received my first bill IN January, and hence the 9th bill I had received 'would' have been in September.

However 'my' interpretation of their T&Cs was that they required the bill that came in the 9th month since connection - which was October.

Indeed, I applied MY logic for the first claim and submitted the bill from month 6 (July) and NOT the 6th bill I had received (which would have been June 2013). But they had accepted my first claim! I deemed that as confirmation for 'my' interpretation of their rules.

I have written back to them asking them to explain why they had accepted my first claim, despite it being against the interpretation of rules they have applied for my second claim.
Will be interesting to hear what they have to say......

Anyway, another lesson learnt :-)

I still have several other contracts with cashback claims - though with a different company, and all claims going through smoothly. Fortunately that other company actually specifies the dates of the bills that need to be submitted eg. Aug 2013 bill, Nov 2013 bill, Feb 2014 bill, so there is no room for confusion.

grumbler

don9999 wrote: »

The reason given was that their T&Cs required the '9 month bill'

Well, in fact the T&C vaguely say "during billing month 9" and "bill for that month" whatever this means.

My understanding is that it has to be the bill issued at the end of the given billing month, not the month from the start of the contract.

And what about 60 days that you have to submit a claim and resubmit it if needed?

mobilejunkie

You've not followed ALL the groundrules. Previous success doesn't guarantee future success.

You haven't stated WHO the deal was from. It sounds like a CPW clone; they virtually always mislead and contradict themselves as to when claims are due. One striking thing in your description is why YOU haven't taken action MUCH earlier. If you follow the groundrules you should never fail UNLESS the dealer goes bust. You have left this far too late to be guaranteed success on this claim - and your later claims may now also be in jeopardy unless you get this right without delay.

Sounds like the dealer is Mobiles.co - am I right?

If so, I have ALWAYS warned people not to follow the simplistic t&c as they are often WRONG and (like all CPW companies) change their interpretation as it suits them. In this case, they changed both the wording of their t&c and (as important) their own interpretation of them. You need to look VERY carefully at the t&c prevalent at the point of sale - which, if you HAVE followed the groundrules, you will have printed off and kept. I believe the t&c changed about two months before you took out your deal - though haven't got time to check right now. Mobiles.co (unlike other CPW clones like E2Save) used to count "month 1" as the month after you ordered - in which case July etc would be correct. However, under their new t&c they no longer specify what "month 1" is by their interpretation - although the examples they usually provide and some of the more specific dates on individual accounts contradict the previous interpreation and they have fallen in line with other CPW clones to interpret the month you order as "month 1".

As a reult I have been watching the numerous contracts I am running with this dealer (as I always do) for myself and several other people and following the new t&c regardless of whatever (contradictory) stuff they send out at various times carefully. Whilst I and at least two others (might be three) HAVE had claims rejected it has been for entirely different reasons which were totally invalid and they have immediately changed it to accepted when challenged (which I/we do instantly and in no uncertain terms). I can confirm that their interpretation of month 1 is now the month your order is processed and all the rest is smoke and mirrors.

I suggest you:-

1) Check YOUR t&c carefully and therefore adjust your claim months accordingly.

2) Check ALL the information they provided to you on t&c and claim months (including those given on-line, which on mine are either incorrect or inaccessible so I never actually follow them - again as I have always warned others to do) AND your July claim (for proof it WAS the July bill AND that they accepted it without any comment about it being the wrong bill.

3) When you have done all that I would send a carefully composed email setting out your case as to why you were led to believe (by THEM) that your next claim month would be October and insisting that they reverse their decision and confirm remaining claim months.

Of course, if I am wrong and it isn't Mobiles.co (unlikely but not infallible!) much of this may well still apply, but not as clearly as it does with them.

Having looked at the claim dates you provided, if this is a 24 month contract you are using the previous t&c where claims were finished at month 18 (instead of month 24 as currently). If it is an 18 month contract it's harder to say without checking. However, if it is 24 months it does sound like they have (if CPW) done another familiar (to me) trick and started changing their interpretation of the claim month part way though to fit in with their current t&c. There is absolutely NO way they can do that provided you enforce the t&c you signed up for. The wording on the previous t&c which stated that month 1 is the month after you took out the contract would prove your case and they must pay - one way or another - and, if this IS Mobiles.co they will pay when challenged with a clear and forceful case. However, logic dictates to me that it may be an 18 month contract under the current t&c, in which case it should have been June instead of July and your only hope to is state that since they paid the July claim and always treated month 1 as the month after ordering (and their current t&c are unclear - and, if you find the right information contradictory) you were completely justified in sticking with subsequent claim months based on that.

I supsect you're not the only one who's been caught out (justifiably or not) and some more may appear on here at some stage. However, each contract is down to you - regardless of what happens with others. If you want ALL your money, follow the groundrules (irrespective of previous success with such deals and/or dealers).

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/558661

grumbler

mobilejunkie wrote: »

It sounds like a CPW clone

It sounds like MPD to me...

mobilejunkie

Maybe. Never used them. However, their cashback t&c suggest that you may be right. If so, although vague they imply that month 1 is the month after order:

"Cashback on 12 month contracts is claimed during billing months 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 from the date of connection or upgrade."


The key work being "from". Still, if they paid the JULY bill it could be argued that subsequent bills would fall in the same way as that one - though how much success you'd have with this outfit coughing up short of actually suing I wouldn't like to say.

don9999

Hmmmmm...thank you for your replies - especially from mobilejunkie :-) I was only expecting some passing comments such as 'tough luck' or 'you're not the only one to be caught out' or whatever. But your replies were most interesting.

Firstly, an apology. My months were all out by one :-(
My original post was done from memory away from home.
I am now home and have all the exact details in front of me.

So, quick summary.
Phone connected in early FEB 2013.
First bill received in late Feb 2013.
Contract is 24 months.
Cashback is with......mobilephonesdirect.co.uk !

Was surprised by your dismissive comments of mobiles.co.uk.
I have been quite happy with them. Indeed, with recent contracts, including the one I still have with them, they have provided the specific month's bill that they require for submissions. So they don't just give a confusing 'month 6' but instead state 'the June 2013 bill'. No confusion as to whether 'month 6' might mean the 6th bill you receive, or 'the bill received in the 6th month since connection' or whatever. They are telling me the exact date of the bill they require :-)

Then again, I 'was' happy with mobilephonesdirect, until the latest claim rejection.....

Anyway summary of mobilephonedirect.co.uk T&C:
[FONT=&quot]The cashback is claimable in five installments over the initial duration of the airtime agreement, during billing months 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 from the date of connection or upgrade.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Please note that claims must be received within 60 days from the date shown on the mobile bill you provide to be valid.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
My progress:
CLAIM 1 - submitted July bill by e-mail (about 2 weeks after bill date)
- email received following day confirming receipt and that payment will be made
- payment received some time later

CLAIM 2 - submitted Nov bill by e-mail (exactly one month after bill date)
- email received 2.5 weeks later in early January rejecting claim
- rejection states that I 'should' have submitted the October bill, and that since it was now more than 60 days since the date of 'that' bill, then I will NOT be receiving any payment.


So.....
I 'may' have made two mistakes.
* I did not retain any T&Cs when I took out the contract
They are only on their web site and I do not know if they have changed in the past year
* I did not make my second claim quickly - Because I was away, I made it exactly one month after the date of the bill I was submitting (which I thought was well within the 60 day limit). However, since they changed their interpretation and claim I should have submitted the previous month's bill; then the 60 day limit from that previous bill was exactly when I submitted the claim :-(

ie. October bill dated 21-10-2013
November bill dated 21-11-2013
I submit November bill on 21-12-2013
They tell me on 9th January that claim is rejected because I submitted the wrong bill.

I HAVE emailed them asking them to explain why my previous claim was successful, despite it appearing to be against their current interpretation of their own T&Cs.

mobilejunkie

If July was the correct bill they have counted February as month one - therefore July is month 6 and they are correct in rejecting a November bill (which is therefore month 10, not month 9). I never count bill numbers but always try to cover myself and know how they interpret their own t&c ("they" meaning whichever dealer I have used). Since claim 1 was accepted you should have sent the October bill. Had you done that, they may have rejected it but you would have established proof of what month 9 is by their interpretaion AND had plenty of time to claim. In any case, should they agree that month 1 was incorrect (in which case both they and you were wrong in which month to use) you would have a case (in that since they accepted an earlier month's bill for that claim you didn't need to send the subsequent month's bill and so could have still been paid). It might be hard to show how you can change your own interpretation of which month after making claim one - it could be argued that you must have agreed with their interpretation of the correct claim months and were simply one month late in submitting claim two.

Always sumit claims as soon as the bill is available - that way you have ample time to force payment or send a later bill if you've got it wrong (you also get paid sooner - and should a dealer go bust it's more likely you'll get at least that part of the cashback before they disappear).

As for Mobiles.co; I have enjoyed countless contracts for myself and others with them and other CPW companies; suing has been required on at least two occasions (successfully, of course - although Mobiles have always coughed up before the final button!) and threats on others. I often get contradictory information after I've ordered (either on-line or in emails and welcome packs, or both) as to which months to claim in - and sometimes the claim amounts are wrong. I'm used to having claims rejected for various spurious reasons (lately for bills not showing adressess even though they do!), been paid less that I should have been and so on (some things are better not advertised on here). Just because I've had (and watched over) scores of deals over the years with CPW doesn't mean I give them carte blanch; a few years back E2Save and others deliverately tried to move the goal-posts and used other tricks to try to get out of paying claims on an ad-hoc basis. They regularly change both the ways they do things and their attitude to customers and cashback. Those are lessons I have learned but had prepared for so although I have always (at least) got all my money from them I have at times been required to force them to pay up.

WTFH

If July is the 6th billing month, as you worked out yourself, then the 9th billing month is 3 months later... October. The 12th month would be January. They didn't change any interpretation, your maths was out.

don9999

Oh bother. I need to be taken out and shot.
If I can't provide accurate information to you guys, how on earth can you respond correctly?

I am SO sorry.
Consider myself suitably chastised.

For my first claim I submitted my August bill, not the July bill.
Doh........!

My arguments don't make sense otherwise...

So......ACTUAL details.....

CLAIM 1 - submitted AUGUST bill by e-mail (bill dated 21-Aug-13., submitted on 3-Sep-13.)
- email received following day confirming receipt and that payment will be made
- payment received some time later

CLAIM 2 - submitted Nov bill by e-mail (bill dated 21-Nov-13, and submitted 21-Dec-13)
- email received on Jan 9th rejecting claim
- rejection states that I 'should' have submitted the October bill, and that since it was now more than 60 days since the date of 'that' bill (dated 21-Oct-13), then I will NOT be receiving any payment.

So my argument is that by accepting my August bill for the first claim, they were agreeing that month 1 was March (the first month since my initial connection)
And hence, I continued to assume that month 9 would be Nov-13 and submitted that bill.

Their subsequent rejection of claim 2 now suggests that month 1 should have been January, meaning that month 9 should be October.
But that 'would' have meant that month 6 would have been July, yet they accepted my August bill !!
So they are changing their own interpretation...


Anyway....I would totally understand if you do not want to make any further replies.
I've been a numpty with my details......

mobilejunkie

Numpty and bother indeed - and a lot of time wasted.

Your are wrong; if August WAS the right month (which is implied in the t&c anyway) then so was November. Now it's up to you to force them to pay up, providing you have proof of what you sent and when. Sending emails telling them the first claim was wrong is the opposite of what you should be telling them - supposing you have got the dates right THIS time.