Ethical Parking Management Fine - HELP

londonerryan

Okay, i've read Umkomaas' thread where he/she details the walk through process.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/63678135#Comment_63678135

My answers:

1. Do i read through threads as in similar ones to mine to get a general idea of what people do? Sounds good.

2. N/A

3. Should i find out the landowner and send them a letter of complaint? If the landowner is my college, they have already said they can't do anything.

4. I have kept my ticket for the day and the college have SAID they will email Ethical Parking Management to say i had purchased a permit but i just hadn't placed in my car.

5. N/A

6. Wait for Notice to Keeper, as i've already been explained.

7. N/A

8. Again, wait for NTK....

9. Soft appeal to PPC (Ethical Parking Management). Not sure what soft appeal means... I presume it means "FIRST appeal" (i.e. not too harsh).

10. Ask for POPLA code WITH soft appeal.

11. Read threads about POPLA stuff (e.g. victories and good points to make).

12. Draft POPLA appeal and post on forum.

13. Send POPLA appeal.

14. Await result.

NOTES:

It says i should NOT say *I* was the driver but merely refer to "the driver" in the third person. Is this correct?

Is this not a problem for me as a full time student at this college?

I am going to read through the rest of the FAQs and threads now.

Redx

londonerryan wrote: »

Okay, i've read Umkomaas' thread where he/she details the walk through process.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/63678135#Comment_63678135

My answers:

1. Do i read through threads as in similar ones to mine to get a general idea of what people do? Sounds good.

2. N/A

3. Should i find out the landowner and send them a letter of complaint? If the landowner is my college, they have already said they can't do anything.

4. I have kept my ticket for the day and the college have SAID they will email Ethical Parking Management to say i had purchased a permit but i just hadn't placed in my car.

5. N/A

6. Wait for Notice to Keeper, as i've already been explained.

7. N/A

8. Again, wait for NTK....

9. Soft appeal to PPC (Ethical Parking Management). Not sure what soft appeal means... I presume it means "FIRST appeal" (i.e. not too harsh).

10. Ask for POPLA code WITH soft appeal.

11. Read threads about POPLA stuff (e.g. victories and good points to make).

12. Draft POPLA appeal and post on forum.

13. Send POPLA appeal.

14. Await result.

NOTES:

It says i should NOT say *I* was the driver but merely refer to "the driver" in the third person. Is this correct?

Is this not a problem for me as a full time student at this college?

I am going to read through the rest of the FAQs and threads now.

1) yes

3) yes, a landowner is jointly responsible as they have employed the PPC so are jointly liable , doesnt matter what they say, they are lawfully bound because its their contract that they signed so they are also responsible

4) keep the tickets and also scan them as well, possibly make copies too

6) yes , wait for NTK (s)

8) yes

9) yes (see bottom of post for an example by stroma, may need adapting though)

10) yes, but they should give this anyway

11 to 14 , yes

never give them evidence, always refer to "the driver" , so not I parked up etc , but "the driver parked up" , explanations are in the NEWBIES thread

soft appeal example

Dear (insert ppc name here),

As the registered keeper of (reg) I'm in receipt of your parking invoice xxxxxx dated xxxxxx. I wish to invoke your appeals process as all liability to you company is denied on the following:

1) this charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) you do not have the authority or permission to issue invoices at this location

These points and others will be raised with Popla should you not accept this appeal, and you will be expected to provide a full breakdown of of your alleged loss, and your full unredacted contract with the landowner.

If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

Please issue your cancellation within 35 days of this letter or supply a popla code to appeal to them.

Faithfully

Coupon-mad

I took the ticket to the place where you buy permits and two very unhelpful women told me there's nothing they could do, it doesn't matter etc etc. Anyway, i told them to email the company to say i had bought the permit at 9.10 am and put a ticket in my car at 8.57 am (i have ticket still). They said they would email the company immediately.

Hmmmmm...you just outed yourself as the driver, to the company! That changes things and effectively takes your Dad - and the plan of waiting for the NTKs and appealing as him - out of the equation IMHO.

I recall your thread about PCM last year - and the above advice is true that your Dad as keeper would have been untouchable. But in this case you have just insisted that an email was sent today basically saying who the driver was...

Do people here recommend I ignore it, pay it then appeal, phone them to apologise, don't pay but appeal....?

The last option of course. You cannot pay and appeal and no-one here PAYS!

However my advice to you has now changed in view of the email you made the unhelpful biddies send. I say appeal NOW as driver, saying that you have a permit, copy attached, and there has been no loss caused and they don't own the car park anyway. Send one letter with both PCN numbers on it.

It's clear from the signage wording that the POPLA case should be winnable anyway, on the usual winning POPLA points you will see in the latest posts in the 'POPLA decisions' sticky thread.

londonerryan

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Hmmmmm...you just outed yourself as the driver, to the company! That changes things and effectively takes your Dad - and the plan of waiting for the NTKs and appealing as him - out of the equation IMHO.

I recall your thread about PCM last year - and the above advice is true that your Dad as keeper would have been untouchable. But in this case you have just insisted that an email was sent today basically saying who the driver was...

The last option of course. You cannot pay and appeal and no-one here PAYS!

However my advice to you has now changed in view of the email you made the unhelpful biddies send. I say appeal NOW as driver, saying that you have a permit, copy attached, and there has been no loss caused and they don't own the car park anyway. Send one letter with both PCN numbers on it.

It's clear from the signage wording that the POPLA case should be winnable anyway, on the usual winning POPLA points you will see in the latest posts in the 'POPLA decisions' sticky thread.

I thought i might have been slightly hasty to tell them to email :eek:

Although, they didn't take my name etc... Just my car registration. Let's just assume they emailed saying "The driver of car reg..... had a permit but didn't display it....", could it be thought that the company still only knows the car reg and nothing else? I presume the college dept which emailed them would have my name etc though so might have dropped my name in email.

The answers i've been given so far (on two forums) is to wait for the NTK letter and then send a soft appeal to company.

Although if an immediate letter is a better option, that's okay with me.

I imagine i would still refer to myself as "the driver" (whether they know i was the driver or not) and simply press upon the facts: Their signs don't refer to their company name, the name on signs is that of the college, no loss caused etc...

Out of curiosity, with regards to parking tickets, is the driver or the owner more at fault? I ask this due to the car belonging to my dad.

Redx

the forums tell you to wait for the NTK as its the RK that gets it , which is why you are told this

the problem is that if you tell them who the driver is then that is who they focus on, they have a stronger case against the actual driver as the driver is or can be "at fault"

in your last sentence , I dont think you meant "at fault" , I think you meant "liable"

the answer as to who is liable is all down to who they pursue , the RK or the driver, clearly the driver is "at fault" because they are the one who broke the parking "rules" , not the RK

complicated I know, but the fact is that the driver is always "at fault" but either the RK or the driver "is liable" , the ppc would prefer to go after the driver if they know who it is

Coupon-mad

The answers i've been given so far (on two forums) is to wait for the NTK letter and then send a soft appeal to company.

Yes but that was before you did what you did!

Although if an immediate letter is a better option, that's okay with me.

IMHO it is now, in your situation, as one would assume they said summat like 'we have just seen a student who says he was driving a car which got 2 PCNs...he has just collected his permit today...blah blah'. For me that's a bit too much information, and there is no longer an advantage in waiting for the NTK x 2. I would reply shortly (see below, in the first week in Feb) to the PCNs x 2 b.

I imagine i would still refer to myself as "the driver" (whether they know i was the driver or not) and simply press upon the facts: Their signs don't refer to their company name, the name on signs is that of the college, no loss caused etc...

Hmmmm...as this is your place of education I think you should attempt not to give your name, in fact. You can still write as your Dad, if he's OK for you to send an email for him:



Re PCN numbers xxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxx
This is my appeal now that two PCNs have been placed on my car in two days. Your charge is punitive and does not represent any loss because this vehicle is covered by a permit (copy attached).

Also your signs at this car park are not compliant and you do not have any legal standing to pursue the matter as Ethical Group do not own this site. Please cancel both these tickets or send me two POPLA codes because drivers and keepers can appeal to POPLA. I would remind you of the BPA's email to all AOS members this month warning of breach of the CoP if POPLA codes are not immediately provided with the rejection letter.
yours,


YOUR DAD'S NAME AT YOUR POSTAL ADDRESS




But diarise to send it on Friday 7th February so it reaches them in the final week of the 28 days appeal window. I have my reasons for saying this.

londonerryan

I have waited until 7th February as suggested by Coupon-Mad above to send a reply to the company.

I have a few questions first...

1. Do i send a letter or an email to Ethical Parking Management? An email would allow me to insert photos which is handy.

Their website contains this page which seems to allow photos to be uploaded: http://ethicsgroup.co.uk/appeal/

2. SHOULD i insert photos into email/letter? I have evidence of the pay and display ticket i put on car on the day of the SECOND 'contractual breach' i received (please refer to my first post). I also have photos of the visible but poorly written sign in carpark which makes no mention of the name of company (only name of my college).

3. Would it make a significant difference if my father emailed/wrote to them? I ask as he's on holiday and it might just be simpler for me to get on with it. He OWNS the car and the flat i live in and he lives permanently abroad.

4. I have gone through the website and read a few letters already sent to companies and have taken ideas from them (e.g. lack of information on sign), but is there anything i should NOT mention? For example, should i refer to "the DRIVER" even though it has probably already been brought to their attention that i was the driver (see first post)?

Thanks.

Coupon-mad

1. Do i send a letter or an email to Ethical Parking Management? An email would allow me to insert photos which is handy.

As always, you use the address the PCN actually states is for appeals.

2. SHOULD i insert photos into email/letter? I have evidence of the pay and display ticket i put on car on the day of the SECOND 'contractual breach' i received (please refer to my first post). I also have photos of the visible but poorly written sign in carpark which makes no mention of the name of company (only name of my college).

No point, unnecessary at this stage except to attach a copy of the permit (as in the suggested appeal above I said 'copy attached').

3. Would it make a significant difference if my father emailed/wrote to them? I ask as he's on holiday and it might just be simpler for me to get on with it. He OWNS the car and the flat i live in and he lives permanently abroad.

As I said before ' ...as this is your place of education I think you should attempt not to give your name, in fact. You can still write as your Dad, if he's OK for you to send an email for him'

So YOU can do it all but in your father's name as keeper of course. Set up an email for that very purpose, if they allow emailed appeals - then you can use it at POPLA stage too, appealing as keeper and just forgetting about that early conversation with the college. It is ALWAYS a stronger position to appeal as keeper (not driver) and that was the whole point of waiting until today to send it (trust me, it's a deadline thing).

4consumerrights

Did you use the online system - because no doubt you will be aware of three things:

a) you have outed yourself on this thread that you were the driver
b) the PPCs monitor this forum
c) should this end up in court and deception is proven - then perjury is a criminal offence.
d) the online consent box requests this to be ticked:

I confirm that all the information I have provided is true and I understand any false information may be used against me in court. Should my appeal be rejected and I later refuse payment in the specified time allowed. I allow Ethical Parking Management to start issuing court proceedings against myself and the address I have provided. Ethical Parking Management is registered with the ICO and all information will be confidential in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998.

Not very Ethical of them either to obtain explicit consent to commence legal action!

Ethical also claim that they operate contractual charges and that self-ticketing is a popular option. It is highly likely someone at your college is self-ticketing here and on a generous back-hander commission.

I think IIRC that Ethical operated a two tier appeals system - though this may have been stopped now.



CAN YOU UPLOAD A PHOTO OF SIGNAGE
AND YOU ARE BEING VERY GREEDY IN GETTING MORE CHARGES:D

londonerryan

4consumerrights wrote: »

CAN YOU UPLOAD A PHOTO OF SIGNAGE
AND YOU ARE BEING VERY GREEDY IN GETTING MORE CHARGES:D

I can't as it seems i need to upload to a photo website thingy.

This is what the generic signs in the car park reads:

WARNING
Parking Notice

By entering you agree not to breach the following conditions:

1. Parked without clearly displaying the required Car Park Permit and proof of payment.
2. Not parked wholly within a designated parking bay.

Failure to comply with any of these conditions you agree to pay the parking charge of £80.

Then at the bottom right hand corner is just name of college. No mention of any parking companies.