ESTA or VISA ???

marco_79

Hi All and Happy New Year,

My family and I have booked up a holiday to Disney recently for July. We have two DDs age 4&8.

I was looking into the ESTA process yesterday and I'm now worried about it.

In 1995 I was convicted of a common assault. I was 15 at the time of the offence but 16 when convicted. I punched another boy from my school and knocked him off his push bike. His parents insisted in pressing charges. I was fined £70. I have never been any other trouble with the police except a recent speeding ticket.

We visited New York in 2002 or 2003 and I ticked the box for no convictions as I thought as I was 15 it wouldn't count. Not sure if MT was on this form back then.

I have looked into moral turpitude on the state department site and I'm pretty certain that this assault doesn't constitute moral turpitude. I would therefore be entitled to tick no on the ESTA form. However the US embassy says VISA for all convictions. My take on it then is ESTA and the Embassy conflict with each other which can't be right.

I need absolute certainity on this as we would be blowing nearly £10k if kicked back and need to get last minute flights home, not to mention the disappointment my girls would face.

I have emailed CBP last night to get clarification that my crime does not constitue moral turpitude and that I had visited New York under the IP94W.

My hope is that they email me back and agree it isn't MT and I can go ahead and apply for an ESTA.

Any experienced thoughts on this approach?

Thanks,

Marco

dzug1

A couple of observations - I'm not going to tell you what to do.


The form hasn't changed since 2002


The UK US Embassy say apply for a visa because they want to decide whether it was MT or not. It isn't a straightforward decision and ultimately it's the interpretation of a US court that decides, not you.


If you do decide to apply for a visa it should be a dead cert that you get it - both because of the time since the crime (15+ years) and it being juvenile delinquency


I doubt if you will get a definitive reply to your e-mail - if I were replying to it I would certainly be non-committal and take the same line as the London Embassy

marco_79

Thanks.

I will wait till I get the email back. If it says apply for a VISA like you suggest then I will of course. Do you know how long this will likely take in my situation?

Strange that the ESTA form asks for "your" interpretation of MT. Why does it not just say all convictions if thats what it means?

Mark

claire16c

You went there in 2002 and no problems. Nothing has changed since then. Again without me telling you what to do...

Like Dzug1 said they may just parrot back the same line.

marco_79

Claire - I'm almost with you, its just there is so much more at stake this time round. What would I say if CBP asked me in florida if I have any convictions or would they if I have already put no on the ESTA??

peachyprice

marco_79 wrote: »

Thanks.

I will wait till I get the email back. If it says apply for a VISA like you suggest then I will of course. Do you know how long this will likely take in my situation?

Strange that the ESTA form asks for "your" interpretation of MT. Why does it not just say all convictions if thats what it means?

Mark

They WILL tell you to apply for a visa, it's their standard reply if you ask.

As above, nothing's changed since you last went, they have no more access to UK juvenile records that they did then, an ESTA is just an electronic version of the immigration form you filled in before.

Did they stop you last time? What would you have said if they had? Why do you think they would have reason to stop you now?

A question to ask yourself: Do you ever mention this conviction when filling out job application forms, insurance forms, loan/bank account/credit card applications? Or do you consider it not relevant to your adult life?

I know what I would do.

marco_79

peachyprice wrote: »

They WILL tell you to apply for a visa, it's their standard reply if you ask.

As above, nothing's changed since you last went, they have no more access to UK juvenile records that they did then, an ESTA is just an electronic version of the immigration form you filled in before.

Did they stop you last time? What would you have said if they had? Why do you think they would have reason to stop you now?

A question to ask yourself: Do you ever mention this conviction when filling out job application forms, insurance forms, loan/bank account/credit card applications? Or do you consider it not relevant to your adult life?

I know what I would do.

Yes - You are correct nothing has changed other than I know what the embassy web site says now that I didn't in the past. I also know the defination of IM and feel pretty strongly that my crime doesn't constitue MT.

No - They didn't stop us last time, only asked the usual business or pleasure, have a nice day etc.

What would I say if they had/did stop me - I.E If they ask have you ever been arrested or convicted of anything. My response would be I have but I did not think my conviction submounted to MT and I was only 15yrs old at the time. I would not be comfortable answering the question no , in case the way they find out these things has changed since New York. I'd then be guilty of lieing and in all sorts of trouble.

Is it against there protocols to ask that question if I have sayed no on the ESTA??

No I never think about my ancient past for anything in the UK but I have never had any chance of losing £10k over it.

A bit of me feels I'm being ridiculsously over cautious.
A bit of me feels I'm balancing the risks and should get a visa.
The biggest bit knows that if I was asked about it in Florida I would have a fairly solid response and litrature to back it up.
I do know that this is getting to me big time and that I need to make a decision soon and stick to it.

dannny_2

marco_79 wrote: »

What would I say if they had/did stop me - I.E If they ask have you ever been arrested or convicted of anything.

NEVER lie to CBP but never offer, so you answer the question asked.

marco_79 wrote: »

I have emailed CBP last night to get clarification that my crime does not constitue moral turpitude

Correct approach.

Incorrect approach would have been to email London or call the help line in Glasgow.

If the person was NOT under 12 then this may be seen as assault and battery. If you caused serious bodily harm it may be a CiMT.

Not enough info to go on in OP.

marco_79

Thanks Dannny.

My conviction was one charge of "common assault". The other boy was 16 and been picking on someone younger. I hit him once and he fell off his push bike, no serious injuries at all. His parents found out and got the police involved and he had a witness. It took six months to go to court and by that time I was 16.

I did some work with kids a few years ago and it came back on the disclosure as "common assault".

In my my mind "common assault" is the same as simple assault as quoted in the various non-MT statements around the net.

Hopefully CBP will come back with an answer soon, whatever it is.

claire16c

marco_79 wrote: »

Claire - I'm almost with you, its just there is so much more at stake this time round. What would I say if CBP asked me in florida if I have any convictions or would they if I have already put no on the ESTA??

It's extremely unlikely they would ask you, they are no more likely than the first time you went.

If you said no it's not like they could tell anyway. Or if you said yes but I was 15 I'm guessing you might get asked a couple of extra questions - but I'd only say that if you find out it's MT. So I guess see what their reply is on the email.

My BIl must look dodgy as they asked him had he ever been in trouble with the police & he said no, which he hasn't, and that was the end of that.

Bri1

Apply for an ESTA online for the minimal cost involved (they last for 2 years) & see what happens, answer is in minutes, if it's a positive outcome job done, if negative simply then apply for a Visa