christmas surprise

fuming17

Hi all, i 've been scouring the forums and its battered my head. I received a PCN for my car overstaying in a retail car park. The driver who isnt the registered keeper overstayed by 25mins in a car park that allows 90 mins free parking but no facility to pay for extra. It states on notices on the car park that 90 mins free parking then £100 fine max reduced to £60 for prompt payment, they use ANPR technology. We live in England. I dont mind paying something but i reckon £60 is a bit steep, and the car park was half empty.
I can prove i wasn't the driver as i was at work, (if i name the driver, i will be paying for it anyway)
The notice was issued 18 days after the incident
No mention of PoFA on the PCN.

Can i not just tell them i wasnt the driver and have no obligation to tell you, and leave it there? Is this not a valid defence?
Or should i go through the appeal then popla route? If so what do you reckon my chances are?
Thanks in advance

Redx

read the newbies READ THIS FIRST sticky thread at the top of this forum

then apply your questions to that thread, you will then see where your arguments fail, and read the walkthrough and advice on how these things are beaten using legal argument as well as mitigation etc

then come back with a better defence

ignoring is not an option for england, as you cannot ignore a court order if it goes that far, in which case they pursue the RK as they are now allowed to do due to POFA

regards

ezerscrooge

Redx is right - have a good look at the newbies bit then have a root through the threads. Get your wording right on the appeals and you'll be paying nothing at all.

There are some excellent templates that you can use, adapt and win with. The only christmas suprise will be for the parking company and BPA as it will cost them £27 & £100 respectively should the case go to POPLA.

Umkomaas

You need to give us some more detail:

Date of parking incident
Date of 1st letter from the PPC (dates are important)
Was that letter headed 'Notice to Keeper', or similar (exact words please)?
Did the letter mention the appeals process, including reference to POPLA?
Name of PPC

4consumerrights

fuming17 wrote: »

The driver who isnt the registered keeper overstayed by 25mins in a car park that allows 90 mins free parking but no facility to pay for extra. It states on notices on the car park that 90 mins free parking then £100 fine max reduced to £60 for prompt payment, they use ANPR technology. We live in England. I dont mind paying something but i reckon £60 is a bit steep, and the car park was half empty.
I can prove i wasn't the driver as i was at work, (if i name the driver, i will be paying for it anyway)
The notice was issued 18 days after the incident
No mention of PoFA on the PCN.

Can i not just tell them i wasnt the driver and have no obligation to tell you, and leave it there? Is this not a valid defence?
Or should i go through the appeal then popla route? If so what do you reckon my chances are?
Thanks in advance

Firstly - as you've "scoured" the forum - you've obviously done some reading and as Redx states the Newbie sticky thread is the one to read.

Secondly - if POFA and no keeper liability is mentioned on the PCN then the only route for the PPC to take is to make the driver liable.

Therefore under no circumstances do you mention or supply information as to who the driver is.

Thirdly - why on earth would you want to pay something for overstaying in a free car park to a company who has no proprietary interest in the land on which the driver was invited to park? Also when the PCN amount does not reflect any loss to either the landowner or PPC,

Fourthly, you should definitely appeal to this to the PPC written in the Registered Keeper mode and yes certainly go to POPLA- then with our help no-one will pay anything!

When you also state you live in England was the car parking event also in England?

Which PPC is this? - Civil Enforcement ?:)

fuming17

Umkomaas wrote: »

You need to give us some more detail:

Date of parking incident
Date of 1st letter from the PPC (dates are important)
Was that letter headed 'Notice to Keeper', or similar (exact words please)?
Did the letter mention the appeals process, including reference to POPLA?
Name of PPC

thanks for the swift replies, in answer to the above,
incident date - 9/12/2013
date of 1st letter - 28/12/2013 (PCN issue date 27/12/2013)
Letter was headed - Parking Charge Notice
Appeals process mentioned with ref to POPLA
PPC - CIV*L Enf**cements LTD

Didnt want to type out full name of PPC as i believe they have hired people to google their name in the search for info. The car park was in England.

How would i find out if they own the car park or have planning permission to operate and hand fines out or have an agreement with the retailer?

Umkomaas

fuming17 wrote: »

thanks for the swift replies, in answer to the above,
incident date - 9/12/2013
date of 1st letter - 28/12/2013 (PCN issue date 27/12/2013)
Letter was headed - Parking Charge Notice
Appeals process mentioned with ref to POPLA
PPC - CIV*L Enf**cements LTD

Didnt want to type out full name of PPC as i believe they have hired people to google their name in the search for info. The car park was in England.

How would i find out if they own the car park or have planning permission to operate and hand fines out or have an agreement with the retailer?

The PCN is out of time if they are pursuing under PoFA, if they're not pursuing under PoFA, then they can only chase the driver. So in any correspondence you must not name the driver.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about YOU finding out anything about their proprietary interest in the land, or contract with retailer, in your POPLA appeal you put the PPC to 'strict proof' for them to come up with the evidence.

You need to put together a short and sweet soft appeal to the PPC (see NEWBIES sticky for examples) to elicit a POPLA code. In parallel you need to raise a strong complaint with both the BPA and DVLA that this PPC is continuing to pursue the RK despite issuing a non-compliant NtK (out of time). Both email addresses in the NEWBIES sticky.

fuming17

How does this seem for the initial appeal to the PPC,

With reference to the PCN NO. ********dated 27/12/2013, I am the registered keeper and I deny all liability for this charge on the following points:

My appeal is based on the assertion that your parking charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss to yourself or the landowner. In every case where a motorist has raised this issue, POPLA have accepted the appeal.

You are therefore fully aware that there is no prospect of your charge being upheld and I invite you to cancel the charge now.

You may also note that your notice to keeper is non compliant (out of time) and a strong complaint will be made to both the BPA and the DVLA if you continue to pursue me as the registered keeper.

If you still decide to continue to pursue this matter and reject this appeal then please supply a POPLA code. However please be aware that further points including (but not limited to) no contract with landowner and/or driver or authority to pursue parking charges in own name etc would be raised at POPLA.

Yours Faithfully

The Keeper

Umkomaas

Looks fine - you just need to drag a POPLA code from them, PPC cancelations at this stage are as rare as hens' teeth.

However, I think you need to deliver a further shot across their bows by adding this (adapted if necessary to suit your style of writing/circumstances) at the end of your soft appeal.

If you do not provide me with a POPLA code and continue to pursue this matter I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. and lost income if I have to attend a hearing.

By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail at POPLA/court. Take note that my costs, and damages for distress and harassment, will form a counter claim if you decide to take the matter to court, since you have been informed that there was no loss nor contravention on this occasion.

Half_way

Ok, but a little too airy for my liking...

Re parking charge invoice No #### Dated 27/12/2013
I am challenging the validity of this notice as the registered keeper as your ridiculous charge does not in no way represent anything that could be described as a genuine pre estimate of loss, I would also like to draw the fact that where this has been raised at POPLA the challenge made by the motorist (or Registered keeper) has been upheld.
Also your notice to keeper is non compliant (out of time) and a strong complaint will be made to both the BPA, limited, the DVLA and to the car park owner as you are nothing but their agents.

If you still decide to continue to pursue this matter and reject this appeal then please supply a POPLA code.

However please be aware that If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you, or your principal. [this would be the car park owner - such as a supermarket pub or what ever]

The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs if I prevail.

Also let the car park owner know whats happening, if they give you the brush off then send them an adapted version of the above, they are responsible for the actions of their agents - the car parking company.

fuming17

Brilliant, i feel a lot better now i've got some quality backing. I'll knock a proper draft up tomorrow and fire it off to them. Should i email it or send it via post?