You've Never Had It So Good....

Southend1

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Whilst I am sure there are people who are genuinely homeless, and there are options for those to have shelter there are examples of people who choose to earn whilst claiming to be homeless

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303310/Beggars-pretending-homeless-raking-20-000-year.html


http://metro.co.uk/2009/08/10/beggars-earning-73000-a-year-328306/

Going back to your example above. It appears the people you refer to are choosing alcohol over shelter.
I can certainly understand why a shelter would want to ensure the safety of it's workers and other homeless people by having a no drink / drugs policy.

Just because there may be people who earn and claim to be homeless does not mean there are no homeless people!

I think it's a little dismissive to claim they are choosing alcohol over shelter. Addiction can cause people to make bad choices, but they are not necessarily made in a rational way.

I understand the reasons for having a no alcohol policy in a homeless shelter, but given that most of the homeless people in the area are alcoholics, there is clearly a shortage of provision for this type of problem. I'm not sure what the answer is but it's certainly not leaving these guys on the streets to freeze to death!

IveSeenTheLight

Southend1 wrote: »

If all of the 49 surplus applicants per job in Hull moved to Aberdeen to seek work and so on, surely this would just spread around the unemployment? There are only 3 places in the UK with a shortage of workers, according to the graphic.

The Arithmetic does not work like that as you do not know the number of applicants / claimants.

I'd guess that it may not balance out, but surely if someone in Hull moved to Aberdeen (as in your example) for employment it would: -

1) Fulfill that available role for the business
and
2) Reduce the number of claimants

Potentially, that business could grow to accommodate further expansion and opportunity.

I'd certainly be willing to move as opposed to be unemployed.

IveSeenTheLight

Southend1 wrote: »

I think it's a little dismissive to claim they are choosing alcohol over shelter. Addiction can cause people to make bad choices, but they are not necessarily made in a rational way.

You mentioned homeless people sitting in a doorway with nothing but a special brew and an old duvet.
Harsh it may seem, but it is a choice they have made.

Southend1 wrote: »

J
I understand the reasons for having a no alcohol policy in a homeless shelter, but given that most of the homeless people in the area are alcoholics, there is clearly a shortage of provision for this type of problem.

It's a tough old world.
In the UK, there are options and people who are willing to help.

You have to be willing to help yourself though before others are willing and able to help you, otherwise it's a lost cause.

Maybe instead of getting benefits or people giving beggars money in a monetary value, they should get vouchers for food and shelter.

I prefer not to give away loose change, but I have on occasion bought homeless people a fish supper

Southend1 wrote: »

I'm not sure what the answer is but it's certainly not leaving these guys on the streets to freeze to death!

Like I said, they can get help and support if they choose so.

Why not leave your office and offer these three homeless guys a nights shelter in your living room and the use of a nice shower?
You could even throw in a Steak and Ale pie for supper.
That would be very festive of you.

Southend1

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

You mentioned homeless people sitting in a doorway with nothing but a special brew and an old duvet.
Harsh it may seem, but it is a choice they have made.



It's a tough old world.
In the UK, there are options and people who are willing to help.

You have to be willing to help yourself though before others are willing and able to help you, otherwise it's a lost cause.

Maybe instead of getting benefits or people giving beggars money in a monetary value, they should get vouchers for food and shelter.

I prefer not to give away loose change, but I have on occasion bought homeless people a fish supper



Like I said, they can get help and support if they choose so.

Why not leave your office and offer these three homeless guys a nights shelter in your living room and the use of a nice shower?
You could even throw in a Steak and Ale pie for supper.
That would be very festive of you.

Have you ever had an addiction problem? It's not quite as easy as just deciding to become drug/alcohol free one day and next day everything's fine.

I do agree that giving money directly to addicts is not normally a good idea.

As for offering the guys something to eat - they've had a box of biscuits between them and a sandwich each from the people in our office today. I don't think inviting strangers with addiction and mental health problems into my home is a great idea, for the same reason as the shelter won't have them- I'm not equipped to deal with people with those kind of issues. But I am happy to donate to charities which are, and I would be happy for my taxes to be used to fund mental health and drug and alcohol rehab programmes.

I'm not sure which light it is you've seen, but I don't believe it's the light of Christ. This Christmas, I would ask you to take just five minutes to reflect on how easy it could be for anyone to fall through the gaps in our society. How far away from the streets are you and your loved ones? A relationship break up, a redundancy, an illness.... Can happen to anyone. Next time you pass a rough sleeper, consider who they may have been before they ended up on the street, and what circumstances may have contributed to the situation. Then think about whether they really chose to sleep in the cold and the rain or whether that might just be the only option left.

Southend1

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

The Arithmetic does not work like that as you do not know the number of applicants / claimants.

I'd guess that it may not balance out, but surely if someone in Hull moved to Aberdeen (as in your example) for employment it would: -

1) Fulfill that available role for the business
and
2) Reduce the number of claimants

Potentially, that business could grow to accommodate further expansion and opportunity.

I'd certainly be willing to move as opposed to be unemployed.

I'm pretty sure the difference is about 7.5 million people? Not counting the hidden unemployed e.g. 16-21 year olds in full time education which is unlikely to benefit their long term financial prospects?

I'm also pretty sure there are many people who move around the country to find work.

If there is a labour shortage, the obvious and rational thing for firms to do is increase the wage offered or offer better terms and conditions. Maybe people would be more willing to uproot themselves for a decent wage?

Generali

Southend1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the difference is about 7.5 million people? Not counting the hidden unemployed e.g. 16-21 year olds in full time education which is unlikely to benefit their long term financial prospects?

I'm also pretty sure there are many people who move around the country to find work.

If there is a labour shortage, the obvious and rational thing for firms to do is increase the wage offered or offer better terms and conditions. Maybe people would be more willing to uproot themselves for a decent wage?

I bet that they all earn more than a fiver a day!

Loughton_Monkey

Southend1 wrote: »

......I'm not sure which light it is you've seen, but I don't believe it's the light of Christ......

Far be it from me to speak for ISTL, but if he is a muslim, or worships one of the other 2000 available gods, then why is that a surprise, or indeed anything to criticise?

Southend1

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

Far be it from me to speak for ISTL, but if he is a muslim, or worships one of the other 2000 available gods, then why is that a surprise, or indeed anything to criticise?

I don't recall being surprised.

Can members of non-Christian religions, or indeed atheists, not recognise or appreciate Christian beliefs or messages?

I'm no expert on the various religions of the world, but I suspect few of them preach intolerance or hatred for fellow human beings.

As an aside, are there really only 2000 gods? Wikipedia lists 20 Roman deities with names beginning with the letter "a" alone!

Loughton_Monkey

Southend1 wrote: »

I don't recall being surprised.

Can members of non-Christian religions, or indeed atheists, not recognise or appreciate Christian beliefs or messages?

I'm no expert on the various religions of the world, but I suspect few of them preach intolerance or hatred for fellow human beings.

As an aside, are there really only 2000 gods? Wikipedia lists 20 Roman deities with names beginning with the letter "a" alone!

I don't have a clue how many gods there are. I think a huge number of people susbscribe to a set of moral values, but speaking for myself I don't like the idea of any religion trying to tell me they invented them or own them. Having rejected 2000 gods myself, I don't tend to listen to others who have rejected only 1,999 of them.

... which by the way (back to the issue) is always a question mark (to me) about the homeless. I would estimate that as a general rule, if they are literally sleeping in a doorway or park bench in the winter, I tend to believe that they have rejected 99 offers/advice of help by that time. I severely question what chance the 100th offer has of working?

Generali

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

I don't have a clue how many gods there are. I think a huge number of people susbscribe to a set of moral values, but speaking for myself I don't like the idea of any religion trying to tell me they invented them or own them. Having rejected 2000 gods myself, I don't tend to listen to others who have rejected only 1,999 of them.

... which by the way (back to the issue) is always a question mark (to me) about the homeless. I would estimate that as a general rule, if they are literally sleeping in a doorway or park bench in the winter, I tend to believe that they have rejected 99 offers/advice of help by that time. I severely question what chance the 100th offer has of working?

AIUI, virtually all rough sleepers 'choose' to do so in the UK. They make that 'choice' because of problems with mental illness or addiction or, most often, both.

In Guatemala, to return to the original point of the thread, many will be destitute simply because they have no money nor any access to money.